More on pappa, Tyrol

A few more notes (besides the comment threads on the other topics are getting too long…)

Tyrol

I noted that it remains curious just where he thought he was sending her. Some just think it was a dangerous attempt to find a habitable rock. One other line caught my attention in review, though. “Come with me. I can’t do it alone.” He doesn’t know it, but this means come be Cavil’s prisoner. Based on what we know, Tyrol was the technical wizard on the final five team. He’s as much of a prize for Boomer as Hera is, perhaps. His threat to open up Ellen’s brain was probably fake, but he definitely wants what Tyrol knows. He wants all five of them, I suspect.

What this means is that all of her last words to him, about meaning all that she said, are just as much a lie, even though they read like “I know I am about to betray you but I want you to know I have feelings.” Or perhaps it means that she truly is Cavil’s “Pet 8” and programmed to obey him, regardless of her feelings. She certainly has been under such compulsions before, in so many things she did. In which case she’s not really a traitor either.

Michael Hall notices that one of Boomer’s compulsions, long ago, involved her not seeing water readings when she was sent out to recon for water to replace the tank she had destroyed in the very 2nd episode, Water.

Slick, the piano player

Podcasts confirm what was already strongly shown, this is Starbuck’s father. Whether he is Daniel or not is another question. He is, however, different from the other “head characters” in the show. When Starbuck meets him at the bar, she has a loud conversation with him. Starbuck is at the bar, Slick is on the raised piano stage. Nobody even turns their head at Starbuck conversing loudly with a ghost, the way they did for Baltar. Some later scenes appear to be in private, but of course in the chilling climax, she starts playing the BSG intro for the Final Five Theme Song, and it’s clear she really is in the bar, really at the piano and presumably playing it. (Though she is not playing a bass guitar etc. which Tigh seems to hear, but he also can be in the illusion.) But nobody notices her talking to anybody invisible.

This is different from her Leoben (who seems to me was almost surely the same being) who appeared to her while seemingly unconscious. And different from Roslin’s Elosha, who appeared in a period of zero time between jumps. And they are different from Baltar’s and Six’s head characters, who are conversed with in real time.

More on the star hunt

Another bad realization for the star hunt. Galactica appears to have been stalled for several weeks in this region of space, which has the stars only seen from here in the solar system. They’ve been sending out week-long recon missions in raptors, looking for anything habitable. The Earth at the end of season 3 was such a planet. They could not miss it if they were sitting right on top of it the way the star patterns say.

So the most likely explanation is the star patterns are the work of careless post-production team members. But one last stretch of an explanation exists. That, like Boomer and the water, they are programmed to not see it, or it’s deliberately hidden in some way. Alas, the appearance of the star patterns (but not obvious ones) near the Ionian nebula makes it look bad. There has been no supernova right near Earth, nor will there be one for a very long time to come, if ever.

The jump damage

The jump damage starts to make sense if you consider that the jump field pushes away things near it. An entire raptor, near the jumping Tylium ship, would be pushed away as a unit, and it’s designed for the acceleration. The wall of Galactica, however, faces having a degrading jump field in the middle of it. Some parts are in the push field, some are not, and it is the difference in forces which tears it apart, and why you can’t jump in-ship.

Not being able to jump in-ship, if also true for Cylons, makes it harder for the Olympic Carrier from the first epsisode to have been sending back FTL signals to the Cylon fleet, except via a true FTL radio with no jump drive. Or of course, as it turns out they probably weren’t sending signals — it now seems almost certain that Starbuck and Apollo destroyed a ship full of innocent surviving civilians.

I would argue no one would

I would argue no one would notice if Starbuck were yelling at nobody while drunk. I mean they would notice, but they would ignore it. Starbuck has done some crazy things while drunk on Galactica. When I was in University we had people who were a little eccentric when drunk and after a while you really stop noticing things that were considered odd at first. I can think of a few people off the top of my head and things they did that you just got used to.

I think if you rewatch the scene in the bar

You will see it is more than that. There is somebody sitting almost next to Starbuck as she chats up the piano player, as well as other patrons. It doesn’t look at all like a scene where a crazy drunk is talking to somebody who isn’t there.

We give Baltar's scenes the

We give Baltar's scenes the benefit of the doubt sometimes. I have seen the episode twice and I saw it the same way I saw scenes with Baltar and Head Six. She is in a bar at a piano and it looks like she is drinking and talking to herself and playing to the people in the bar when I watch it.

Play the scene

That’s about 23 minutes in. People are walking around, even walking between her and the Piano. The scene at 11 minutes is not much better. The bartender pours her a drink as she’s talking to slick, not noticing it in the least.

Hands on the Keys

At one point she's sitting at the bar talking to Slick over her shoulder and we see her reflection in the mirror. Someone watching could assume a drunken Kara is just talking to herself in the mirror.

Regarding the bass that Tigh hears, it could be that Kara's playing makes the Five more receptive to hear a transmission that's been playing on a loop. I wonder if the music is some kind of homing signal to Earth. Also, right before Tigh and company join Kara at the piano we see Kara with one hand on the keys and Slick with both hands on the keys. When she is for a second distracted by Tigh and looks back to the piano to see Slick gone -- both of her hands are on the keys, which makes sense since she was in fact alone the entire time.

BTW, Galactica SitRep seems to think that Nomion's 3rd sounds like Stu Philips "Exploration Theme" from TOS, but I don't hear the similarity.

Bass?

What bass that Tigh hears? I don't recall that. But if you're talking about the additional music over the piano as they recognized the music-- I think that was just for dramatic purposes so that we the audience would recognize it more easily. I don't think anyone else heard it.

Agree again

The overlaid music was added mostly for the audience, which might not catch that its Watchtower on piano. It also added to build and urgency of the scene, something hard to do with just the lone piano notes.

I also have to put myself in with the "they thought it was Krazy Kara" explanation for her talking to herself. Let's be honest, a drunken Kara talking to herself wouldn't have been the weirdest thing Kara had ever done BEFORE she came back from the dead.

The piano playing

No, it’s more than that. Kara is clearly experiencing illusions about her own actions as well as Slick’s. When they do their “duet,” from Kara’s POV, Slick is playing 2 hands and she is playing one, but when we switch to objective POV, Kara is playing 2 hands and the Cylons hear her doing it.

So once you accept that Kara is not just seeing Slick in her head, but also seeing herself do things differently from reality, it makes sense that she only thinks she is talking out loud, too. Play those scenes again. It’s not like “Oh, crazy Kara” from the other characters. If a crazy person starts shouting, you may ignore what they say but you don’t ignore the fact that they are talking, in that you will instinctively turn your eyes, and then look away when you decide it’s a madwoman.

Kara's Crazy

She's not interacting with someone who isn't there. I think a previous poster had it right: for the most part, what she's doing and saying isn't really happening, but is in her head. Everyone else just sees her sitting there, drinking and playing the piano, but she, to herself, is talking and interacting with her head-Father.

In the end, it is of no consequence. It doesn't mean anything, and is a waste of time debating it.

I love how when Baltar talks

I love how when Baltar talks to Head Six people just accept it, but when Kara talks to a Head father, it is impossible for no one to notice. This is like the stupid mirror that Michael Hall posted about, which if you have any sense of perception you can tell it is an optical illusion and there was nothing done to change the image in the mirror.

Watchtower

"The overlaid music was added mostly for the audience, which might not catch that its Watchtower on piano."

Well, it isn't Watchtower, actually. As Bear himself pointed out on his blog, it's "Heeding the Call", not "All Along the Watchtower". :)

Olympic Carrier

Based on Leoben being able to cut through the radio waves aboard Galactica and the rest of the Fleet so Roslin can transmit, it is safe to say Cylons have a decent handle on transmission technology. You don't know where the Cylon Fleet was hiding. They could have been close enough at all times to receive transmissions.

Cylon transmitters

Sorry for not providing enough background. There was some debate about whether Cylons, or anybody else had FTL radio. Cylons have good radio, but FTL radio is a horse of a different colour. Most people think they don’t, though this requires a lot of strange alternate explanations. If they have it, then of course 33 can be explained through a Cylon agent on board the Olympic Carrier with an FTL radio.

The missing background: One alternate explanation to an FTL radio was a small “probe ship” that was small enough that the agent would have lots of them (scores of them) and which could jump out from inside the ship to send a message. This now seems a lot less probable, so it’s either FTL radio, or no Cylon agent at all. I will probably do a post detailing why in the future if there’s a lull. No matter how good your radio is, if it’s not FTL then you can’t receive any transmissions sent to you after a jump. If you receive transmissions before a jump (ie. ordinary super-secret, super-good Cylon radio) then there is no reason for a 33 minute delay and in particular for the critical scene where the OC fails to make the jump and the Cylons don’t come.

Contradictory Evidence

Ron's already stated that series 1 was just a chase, he wanked himself silly over the contrived plot of 33, and Cavil having the drop on them is retcon. I'm not sure it's possible to squeeze something rational out of that "no plan" -> "look at me being clever" -> "oops" progression.

Well, actually

The description I am working up plays a few possible situations for 33, including “Cavil is playing cat and mouse” and others. That’s the most likely retcon. However, “The ship was under Cylon control at all times” does not mesh with the facts. More details to come.

Bone Free

I look forward to your NOT ESPENSEN content.

Bone free,
As free as the bone throws,
As long as the leash goes,
That's bone free...

We might not have got A PLAN but at least you're throwing us A BONE.

Not sure what Cylon "Call me Clarence" Centurion would say. But that's another show.

Isn't it possible?

Isn't it possible that Cavil, while the mastermind of BSG, was hands-off in many cases? Couldn't he have just sat back and watched the other Cylons chase the fleet? If it's the case, it makes certain stories like 33 make a little more sense, as Cavil sat back, watching a grand theater.

FTL Communication

What about how the Cylons transmit their memory updates to a resurrection hub? Doesn't that kind of transmission have to be FTL possibly via quantum entanglement?

The Grid

I've mentioned that sort of stuff before but Brad remains... stubborn.

My personal favourite is microscopic wormholes.

Quantum tunneling has shown effects similar to FTL but the standard model brigade handwave this away with a bunch of stuff I don't understand too well. I'm sympathetic to QT:FTL but it's a bit of a toy at the moment.

Big Fat Essay on FTL here: http://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/physics/Relativity/SpeedOfLight/FTL.html

I theorised a few years ago that light (and Quantum Mechanics) was floating on top of a deeper reality. This isn't the standard view but writers like Ian M Banks have expressed simmilar ideas (the grid), and I've heard similar from various physicists. Whatever the truth, I'm sure, we can agree our view isn't complete.

Grid

Thanks for the link. In my unpublished novel "The Kinship" my characters utilize a network they call the Grid that lets them communicate FTL. I'll definitely be checking that out that article.

Excession

There's an essay by Ian M Banks which explains his whole Culture thing. It goes into the politics and tech. Very interesting read. I can't remember which novel he introduces "the grid" but I first recall it being mentioned in Excession.

http://www.futurehi.net/phlebas/text/cultnote.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Excession

I'm posting anonymously and haven't got my blog in gear yet but your unpublished novel sounds interesting. If something happens in either direction it would be nice to pick up on that sometime. It would make a change from "the grind".

The Grid

Thanks for the links as well as the kudos. My first four chapters are up on Authonomy if you're interested in reading more.

Brad: Sorry to pimp my book on your blog. I couldn't resist.

Smothered Potential

I took a quick scan. I'm very critical by most people's standards and if you're too precious or a fanboi that doesn't play well. But I've found that I'm accurate enough over the long-haul. You're welcome to dismiss my snap opinion if you want.

1. Female lead. Rarely works well.
2. Too many buzzwords.
3. Character and flow issues.

People are bad at seeing their own faults and can praise other people too much when we should be more critical and circumspect, and vice versa. I may brutal but I know what I like. You could try reducing the emphasis on words and look more to action and ambiance. I'm thinking, inject a little more action movie. Vampire movies are good, also.

It didn't grip me and the words just got in the way. I think, you're trying too hard and if you let go of that mental clutter you might discover your strengths. You're clever and sensitive enough but my impression is you'd be better off using that cleverness in a supporting role, and making broader and more sensitive emotional brushstrokes.

This is normally the point people start arguing and getting pushy.

Feedback

Thanks for taking the time to review it. I'm always open to feedback.

Intent

I'd find an abstract would introduce the book better, and gushing comments can be a bit useless. It's always difficult to give feedback on something when you're coming to it cold. I just don't go for the blend of Philip K Dick and David Eddings construction. It's not my sort of thing. I prefer action/adventure.

Hollywood's optioned The Player of Games. This is understandable but I prefered Use of Weapons. The book isn't without its issues but I found it quite novel at the time and didn't overdo the technobabble. The balance of action, character insight, and techical edge impressed me. A lot.

I don't like technology for the sake of technology, or story for the sake of story. That seems gratuitous and life is short. By explaining or constructing things out in the open you rob people of their imagination and mystery. The urge to explain or play it safe upsets the risk and reward balance.

I'm mostly making conversation here but I'd be interested in hearing how you see you could rejig your writing to prudce something different. I hate it when feedback goes into a black hole. Plus, you might be uptight and talking it through can unravel the intent and shake things loose.

Differing Tastes

I appreciate the time you took to look it over and post your opinion. I didn't elaborate in my previous post simply because from your review I gathered that as readers we enjoy very different kinds of books and that perhaps you're just not the intended audience for this story.

You said:

Female lead. Rarely works well.

We are definitely seeking different kinds of books. As a reader I specifically seek out novels with strong female protagonists and my Danger Gal blog highlights these types of characters almost every Friday. Books with strong female leads are also the kind of books I write. One of the reasons I enjoy BSG is for its strong female characters like Starbuck, Roslin, Athena, Six etc. I think strong female main characters can work exceptionally well, but I understand if that's just not your cup of tea.

Regarding your comparison to Dick and Eddings: Thanks very much about the former and I don't really get the latter.

You could try reducing the emphasis on words and look more to action and ambiance. I'm thinking, inject a little more action movie. Vampire movies are good, also.

I'd be interested in hearing how you see you could rejig your writing to prudce something different.

I'm not really sure how to answer that, actually. There's quite a lot of action in the story already. Also, did you really say vampires? I actually wondered if you were joking there. I have enjoyed several vampire novels, but that's not what this story is about at all. To be honest, the first time I read your response I thought maybe it was intended as sarcasm.

Seriously though, I do appreciate you taking the time to look it over, but I think our tastes are just very different.

Commenting on writing

Commenting on writing technique and style isn't my strongest point, and my head really isn't in a reading or critical space now. Someone else could probably comment better.

Strong female leads have niche appeal and the dominant agit female mindset is fashionable but suffers from overcompensation and hypocrisy. That's really a political comment and I can understand when a female author mining that throws a wobbly. But it's a cliche and will date. The formula doesn't work and it's worth asking the question whether it's a good idea and if it's worth identifying with.

The Dick and Eddings comparisons were to draw out your picking stuff, and the fantasy epic background structure. I've never really been into that, can't stand William Gibson's stuff, and favourite authors when I was a kid were Ian Fleming and Freddie Forsyth. Actually, you might want to look at Craig Thomas. He's very descriptive and has a fantastic grasp of language. He dated horribly after the Cold War ended but this and his treatment of plot is worth looking at.

Vampire stories were pretty different before Bram Stoker's Dracula, and have since descended into technology obsession in the movies and the schlock horror of women's fantasty novels. It's understandable someone might leap at that but it's a canvas that can be worked into something better. I'd look at it more as a creative touchstone and go from there.

Interview with the Vampire was a great movie and Vampire the Masquerade: Redemption was a great game. Can't say I rate anything in this genre highly before or after. The Blade TV series was an almost dud that turned out well but got cancelled. Most of the other stuff floating around is just using the genre to get attention.

There's how things are and how we are but these change.

We're just going to have to

We're just going to have to agree to disagree about female protagonists. I'm female and enjoy reading books with female protagonists. That's not mining a fad.

Again, our tastes are vastly different as I've enjoyed Gibson's work. Other author's I've enjoyed are Richard Morgan, Chris Moriarty, and Sharon Shinn's non-angel books. And vampires -- you brought them up, but I still don't know why. I've read quite a few that I've liked, but consider them to be horror, urban fantasy, or paranormal romance not science fiction.

You're not listening to

You're not listening to what's being said. Told you.

I'm not into arguing out who's right and wrong, or getting personal. You might see what I'm getting at in time and fashions will change anyway.

Heh. I was sitting where you were once. Wish I'd listened back then. Things would've gone a lot smoother later.

FTL and relativity

The problem with FTL is that our current understanding of physics does not expressly prohibit it, but does say that it is the same as time travel, that the concept of causality fails if you have FTL.

So while you can come up with theories to generate FTL, no matter what they are, they mean time travel. (Unless you also declare the existence of a fixed reference frame, and there’s a lot of evidence there is no fixed reference frame, and most of modern physics is based on the assumption there is no such frame.)

Nonetheless, space opera with a chase through the galaxy, which is the premise of BSG, requires FTL to work. So Moore put it in and we accept it. But breaking one rule (for a reason) is no excuse for breaking other rules for no reason.

You don't even need

You don't even need transmitters. As long as the FIRST time the fleet jumped away that communication of coordinates was relayed, meaning the Olympic Carrier just has to be the last ship to leave than the Olympic Carrier can transmit the next jump coordinates each time the Cylons jump into the same coordinates every 33 minutes. Why y'all feel the need to add all this science to simple logic problems is probably why you were so far off with where season 4 was going. Logic people. Simple answers are often the right ones.

If you don't understand how this is possible without FTL communication you are truly blinded by an unfounded belief in your own intelligence.

There is no spoon

That's a sound theory but I'm only talking about FTL because someone else brought it up. Then there's the issue of the Cylons tracking the fleet when all the ships are playing on the same team. It's just a point of conversation and not necessarily anything to do with (this specific instance of) tracking.

My basic guess, and I've heard nothing to contradict it, is "33" was just Ron wanking himself. If I recall, Ron wanted the Olympic Carrier to show frightened faces pressed against the windows like the passengers were aware they'd been taken over and were on a suicide run, but that was cut by the censors.

My impression is they just wanted fast paced action and rested in the fact there were a possible bundle of explanations. There wasn't much planning during series 1. It was, to use Ron's words, just "a chase". That makes me wonder where the "three acts" came from. They could've worked out the remaining Cylon reveals and not needed the Mother of all Retcons.

A lot of this show defies explanation because, simply, there isn't one.

You call it a retcon, I call

You call it a retcon, I call it storytelling. If it were changed after the show was complete I would agree, but Ron Moore stated he had one story that had to play out (and we still don't know what that story is) and the rest was being made up on the fly. I have no problem with Moore taking them all now and putting them together to reveal a sweater instead of string. As long as the sweater is comfy and fits well (and doesn't have a lame picture on the front) I will be happy to wear it.

Funky Gibbon

There's been too many on and off screen inconsistencies to make it an after the fact affair which makes that perspective backwards rationalism and emotionalism. It's content free and force of personality rather than delivering on the initial premise. That positions Ron as the Aplha male and your monkey brain is dancing to his tune.

Ooh, ohh, ooh. The funky Gibbon.
He's here to show you how,
Ooh, ooh, ooh.

Someone tell Wall Street. Oops.

I didn't realize Ron Moore

I didn't realize Ron Moore was here talking to us. How else could you have been in the room while he was deciding how the show will play out and therefore have the authority to tell us what his premise was at any time? Are you going to quote the famed Mission Statement that was scrapped when he went in to show the pilot to the execs and they asked for more religion? Other than that he has given us no premise other than to tell us on numerous occasions that they are writing it as they go. He even jokes about it saying if he were perfect he would have had a plan to start with.

Of course you know better than everyone because you are Ron Moore.

Once the immersion bubble

Once the immersion bubble burst BSG and the last few episodes have been D-E-A-D I've got a bit bored.

I get naughty when I'm bored.

Vewwy, vewwy, naughty.

I agree

I hate the term retconning in an on-going story. In a series of novels or movies, perhaps, but BSG and things like comic books it is not very apt. The fact is, writer's often develop their stories as they go. Not everyone plots out their entire story before they put pen to paper. Even when they do, they often make modifications as new ideas emerge.

Imagine calling the third act of a movie a 'retcon' just because it changes what you thought was going on in the first act? The difference though, is-- and i've mentioned this before-- that writers of a TV series don't have the benefit of correcting plot holes that grow out of an ever-changing story. They have to write their ending and hope, or do their best to have it gel with everything that's come before. A novelist can go back and alter things so they come out seamlessly, a movie writer can do the same, editing the script so that everything fits. TV writers do not have this option.

Dickens didn't seem to have

Dickens didn't seem to have that problem when he was paid a penny a page. If TV makes viewers dumb, does it make writer's dumb as well? That's a fair question and, maybe, people should take a step back before they execute.

Shows how little you know

Shows how little you know about Dickens. Congrats on providing a great example for the old adage, "It is best to have one think you a fool, than to open one's mouth and prove it."

Approach

There's some useful points about retcons and how you handle them going in or going out. People need to focus on that instead of getting precious or pulling a cheap troll.

So is Hera a giant retcon as

So is Hera a giant retcon as a character? Helo was not supposed to live past the mini. Boomer wasn't supposed to be a Cylon, therefore there is no Athena. The idea of a hybrid child was a spur of the moment idea. None of this, which has become the main story, was planned. Nothing. Zero. Moore can claim he had his one story he wanted told, but I think that was lie. Well, not lie, as I learned from Star Wars, he has his own point of view on it. I think his story that has held is the idea that at the end you will not be able to tell the difference between Cylon and Human (the skinjob type) and possibly, there is none. Other than that this was slapped together would good ideas, on the fly, to convey that message. That is the nature of the beast unless you are on HBO and if you were HBO you wouldn't have signed off on a re-imaging of BSG because the original was terrible. Don't kid yourselves here. This was not signed on as a show until the success of the mini. No one expected this to work except the people working on the show. People who were on the net when the show came out will remember that most fans of the original hated this version of the show at first. No, they did the best they could and delivered way more than anyone could have expected. I don't care if this ends with science or fantasy, the ride was amazing and that is all that matters.

Good comment. Moore, like

Good comment.

Moore, like Lucas, wants to look like a winner and get paid. A lot of that is down to blind luck and fan input. They've pulled it off well enough to fool most people but it's an old game. That's pretty much why I dismiss a lot of it as ego but there's no point in throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

The problem with analysis is people can get anal, and the "run with it" crowd can look like slack jawed idiots. Life seems to be about striking a balance between the two. That's why anyone who is being honest would admit mistakes and fanboism, and treat it as a learning curve.

People who don't get this tend to fuck up or be left behind.

I would say unlike Moore,

I would say unlike Moore, the stuff Lucas did to "get paid" as you put it were the stuff that people liked. Because anyone familiar with how Lucas got filthy rich knows that the prequels and the recent cartoon, even if they were on par with the greatest selling of each category all-time would be worth less than 1% of his empire. Lucas can continue Star Wars purely because he wants to and never go broke because ILM dwarfs anything he could put into Star Wars and ILM is only 1 piece of his media empire. It is so funny when people try and make a backhanded comment about Star Wars having become a cash grab, it shows how little they truly understand. The truth is the story is never over when you create something as big as that. Did Tolkien stop writing in Middle Earth? How often does R.A. Salvatore return to Drizzt Do'Urden? Ridley Scott and Blade Runner and that is for what 6 frames of film at this point? George Lucas stays in the Star Wars realm at this point because like all authors the world is his baby and it inherently speaks to him and gives him ideas he wants fleshed out. Lucas happens to also be the smartest single person to ever work in the film industry. You name it he has had a hand in perfecting it for use today. Whatever he touches in the technology of film becomes better and that is where he has made his money. Not to mention here is a guy that unlike a certain other "Star" named series allows the fans full access to Star Wars brand so long as they don't try and profit off it (or defame it), allowing for some of the most creative work in fan fiction, fan films and fan websites on the internet. I am fine with people thinking the Old Man has lost his marbles. That is your point of view, but when you call it a cash grab, well, it shows how little you know about it and invalidates your opinion because you obviously don't get it.

Agreed

If Caprica was changing the story that would be a retcon. BSG playing itself out isn't a retcon, you just don't like the story, which begs the question why did you continue watching, or are you just mad they didn't use your idea and you resent it publicly, but privately you are fine with it and love the story so you continue watching?

Nothing changes

You're turning things into a black and white issue when that's not the case. Moore fucked up. Fact. Audiences can't pull shows out of their ass. Fact. Life is sometimes about making compromises. This isn't about the show or conversation it's about you trying to force your view and protect your investment in the show.

People can demand perfect or everything go their way but as I commented in my response the world doesn't work that way. By trying to force it you're pulling the same stunt an tard CEO, politician, or religious nutcase pulls. Hey, wake up. What has the whole theme of the show been about? Have you paid attention? Have you learned anything?

I don't think Moore screwed

I don't think Moore screwed up anything. As for the theme of the show it is obviously about what it means to be human. I didn't think the show was necessarily trying to teach me anything though. I just thought it was an exploration of humanity. Not all art is meant to teach. Sometimes it is just art. Meant to be enjoyed, not teach.

You say "Moore fucked up.

You say "Moore fucked up. Fact." Isn't that turning it into a black and white issue?

The almighty power of basic

The almighty power of basic logic.

Wheel of misery

Not really. He's admitted it himself (as well as moving on to other projects). If people want to fall into fanboi idealisms and start squealing is that Ron's fault? My fault? Or is there some issue of perfectionism and clinging you have to address?

The more right you are and the more personally challenging things are the more people tend to bury their heads in the sand or lash out. This continues until they're calling each other names and issuing death threats. I can't be bothered with that but there's things on the table for when you want to pick them up.

Doesn't bother me. I've got my own gig to run.

We get it. You feel the

We get it. You feel the show fails so badly that you continue to watch it and go to websites to discuss it. Makes perfect sense. Really, it does. Serious.

Time sink

Moderator's note:

This tree of messages is deleted. Talk about the show, not about each other (especially if you are anonymous or responding to an anonmymous poster.)

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Even simpler

You could take this further, the Olympic Carrier doesn't need to be the last one out if they can send their transmission without anyone knowing. Given Leoben knows how to get around the Colonial scanners, it is safe to say someone else might know. That eliminates the suspicion of why the Olympic Carrier would always be the last ship to jump. We don't see life aboard the Olympic Carrier, so it is possible they were taken over by Skinjobs sometime before they joined the Fleet. All in all, I have to completely agree that the Olympic Carrier was hostile and obviously so.

I would tend to agree,

I would tend to agree, mainly because they armed a nuke while heading back toward the fleet.

Fade to fap

Brad's going to have to recon his retcon analysis of the retcon, um, rectcon retcon analysis retcon. Man, I'm getting lost with this. All we need is Bernard Getz steaming in between Adama and Cavell in CIC and we're done. I have the spitty, loud, and hysterical pitch running through my head now. It's a toss up between that and a Benny Hill ending.

FADE TO FAP.

We know Boomer's last words

We know Boomer's last words to Tyrol were lies, at least if you believe Ron Moore's podcast, because he seems to think she was just using him, hence their kid being gone.

Indeed she was

But her speech was very much of the “I’m going to betray you soon, though you don’t know it, and when you learn it I want you to know that I really cared for you” type. But it’s clear it wasn’t even this.

Boomer’s reversal under Cavil is huge. Boomer is the one who embraced humanity, who pushed to stop attacking it, convinced the other Cylons the genocide was wrong (along with Cap Six.) Boomer did love Galen. The new Boomer betrayed Galen, humanity, and her model line utterly and completely. This is such a switch that it makes you suspect more than just how persuasive Cavil is.

Free Will

This is such a switch that it makes you suspect more than just how persuasive Cavil is.

Or he re-programmed her. He's done it before (the Five, Centurion inhibitors) he'll do it again.

I don't think Boomer was

I don't think Boomer was programmed. Remember, Boomer learns about Ellen for the first time one full year before the fake escape from Cavil. Cavil had been working Boomer a long time we just don't see it. Boomer knew about Ellen before D'Anna in the timeline. It isn't a fast shift for Boomer, it is a long transition that we don't really get to see. By the time Boomer takes the vote against her line it how long had it really been? Approximately 7 months, possibly 8 depending on how you look at it. No this is no quick transition. The quick transition was why did she vote against her line, which seemed out of the blue. This answered that question. The history is this episode. What was said, the motives, may or may not be developed in the last three episodes, but based on pure time this was no overnight transition, it was probably 18 months in the making. I bet Cavil began working Boomer the day Ellen downloaded. He saw his opening. The failure of New Caprica. The idea that their creators the Final Five were nothing more than wannabe humans and Boomer was very angry at the human race.

Where I work people talk to

Where I work people talk to themselves and no one bats an eyelash while they do it. Of course, just because we saw them having a conversation doesn't mean it wasn't happening in her head. The conversation, not her in the bar. I don't really care either way, I still think she has Virtual people in her head like Baltar. I am curious why Anders said Tyrol thought he had a chip in his head on Earth. Are Kara and Baltar slated to be the next Final Five?

the last ride of bill adama

I think Bill Adama will go down with the ship in the end... Galactica is already on its last legs, and from all the pills and booze so is the Old Man.

This is probably not a very wild or surprising prediction. And I don't know what's being discussed elsewhere on other message boards and blogs. But when I thought of this earlier today, it struck me because I hadn't thought about it before.

As we get very close to the end, I've been trying to map out where the character-driven drama and the hard sci fi might meet, and whether we might be happy with the outcome.

I keep coming back to Starbuck, as she seems to be the best vehicle to bring her character to a point of resolution while unveiling many of the key details of the plot (i.e., Daniel or some other string puller, the nature of human and cylon, and the location of the real earth).

The other is the fate of the older generation. There is something very Old Testament about how the older generation must die before the children can find the promised land. I suspect it is not just Roslin who will go, but also the Admiral and Galactica itself. Not sure how, but presumably it would involve taking down Cavil and his faction.

I like this theory that they all can't see earth, star patterns notwithstanding. Which implies that they're all cylons, although of different generations. After all, we know from Anders that Kobol had "organic memory transfer." This doesn't imply they're all cylons per se, but it strongly supports the idea that the original human race lost out to AI, which attempted to recreate a human civilization on Kobol. There's hope yet, I think.

Agreed

Remember one of the ideas of the series is that parents must die for children to come into their own. Apollo is on the verge of becoming president of a new human-cylon alliance. How much more can he come into his own? That means Adama must die (in real life, the timing need not be so literal, but in art, the symbol often trumps reality).

Will Anders wake up and shout "Juuuuuump!"

Remember when Roslin plugged in the hybrid and it woke up and jumped the Cylon base ship immediately? How likely is it, that they plug in Anders, and when he regains consciousness, he jumps the base ship directly to the location of the new earth?

If we posit that the one true Cylon god, is in fact, some remnant of a super-AI post-singularity "blight" from the Kobol days (like in Vernor Vinge novels), and that it exists as a sort of 'race' memory virus in cylon blood, and that one needs to get some state of consciousness approximating death to experience a piece of it (Kara, Anders, Roslin, Hybrids), then the string puller isn't a person, a spirit, or an entity, but just some viral fragment meme left around, that drives its hosts like selfish-genes/memes. We don't know why the puller-meme that is stuck in the collective consciousness is driving the cycle to repeat, but it could be that hybrid-cylons could be a threat to its existence, with successive generational intermixing 'breeding it out' of the cylon bloodline.

Not likely

I like the thought, but it'd be tough because he's not wired in to the FTL drive. I suppose he could awaken with the coordinates for Earth, though.

Ummmm

If on "33" the fleet always jumped after the Cylons showed up - and IIRC they always did - then why is there a need for an FTL drive to relay the new coordinates? Somebody or some computer on the Olympic carrier - actually, on *any* ship in the fleet - merely needs to relay the received coordinates to the first Basestar that shows up before jumping, and the Cylons simply wait 33 minutes after the last ship leaves to jump away. For this to work the transmitting agent also needs to delay a new jump until the jump coordinates have been received. That makes slightly more sense if there really was a Cylon on the OC, but really, given the number of ships at that time, it could have been anywhere.

So FTL shouldn't need to be invoked for that episode in the first place.

There isn't. It is another

There isn't. It is another example of people who want to find crazy scientific explanations for everything ignoring the most simple facts.

Why are we so convinced that this was all preplanned?

The only real hint that this is the case is that one of the crew (Tigh?) says it after the escape, likely because he can't fathom that someone on the crew would aid her.

Isn't it just as likely (not more, just equally) that Boomer, who has often been a bit mercurial in her emotions, was genuinely moved by Ellen, and rescued her in the belief that she'd be welcomed by her fellow Cylons for bringing them the Finalish Cylon. She might not have anticipated being locked up for treason and being put to death. So she takes off to return to Cavil, but, now that she's betrayed him, realizes she needs a bargaining chip or peace offering, and grabs Hera (I assume because she's easier to smuggle out than Tigh).

The only reason I see to go with the "it was all a set up" story is that it explains (in part) how Boomer could find the fleet but not Cavil.

The other hint that this was

The other hint that this was pre-planned was the ease of Boomer and Ellen's escape. Even in No Exit, I'd suspected that Boomer was still working for Cavil -- were we supposed to believe that he allowed her to hang out with Ellen for 18 months, and then left a conveniently unguarded Raptor just sitting around on the Basestar the day of the surgery...? No way. The "escape" was much too easy, and now we know why.

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