I am not saying that ID cards lead to guantanamo. I use it as an example of what Kissenger was talking about. How easily important rights will be trampled in the event of crisis.

Civil rights advocates know that in good times, you don't have to worry so much or work so hard to protect rights, because the danger is much less then. But the good times are atypical in history, and not just ancient history -- which the Europeans know better than the Americans.

Those European libertarians were saying, "When the fascists try to return, and they will, do we want to have a surveillance infrastructure in place for them? Just to make it easier for today's bureaucrats to do tracking today that seems more benign?"

Guantanamo shows where even a nation with a strong tradition and constitution can go overnight when the wrong events happen.

I must say I find it amusing you feel the desire to participate in this thread anonymously.