Brad Ideas - Joseph Adama as a Cylon - Comments

your right, mixed up F5/S7....I wonder

ent — Sat, 14 Jun 2008 17:16:23 -0700

You may have covered this, but I wonder....

D'Anna sounded so certain that only 4 were with the fleet. This makes it sound like she knows the situation of the 5th. What was the wording from Razor, "...the fifth is still is in shadow, drawn toward the light, hungering for redemption, that will only come in the howl of terrible suffering." Is the situation of the 5th what D'Anna was sorry for?

I wonder if the 5th is working things behind the scenes, but denied a physical body. For example, suppose the F5 helped design the Cylon race because the F5 were growing old and "needed" new bodies that could continue to regenerate (sort of Doctor Who'ish). Model #7 might have even been a failed attempt of providing a new host for an F5. His body might have been boxed or destroyed, and his active consciousness left to exist in some other unstable form that can only interact through energy.

#8 might have fixed the problem, upgraded to be capable of procreation, but insufficient to host any of the F5, so it was used as the others were, for pure AI.

#9-12 could then be the remaining F4.

Unfortunately, I get confused when I think that the 12 models do represent the 12 archetypes of humanity, since it indicates that the F5 had 4000 years to diverge from original personalities into a chosen representative personna; and the S7 had to pick from the remaining archetypes. However, if this is the case, Model #7 might represent an archetype of humanity that is dangerous to survival (the guy who is capable of launching a nuclear war to destroy a planet, forever looking for redemption).....

It could also be that the F5 also started out as 12 original archetypes, but some have died over the millenia, and the F5 are indeed the Final 5 of the original 12, before they tried to remake themselves. Indeed, I'd look forward to seeing what the 12 archetypes really are.

Whichever path it takes, the "Doctor Who" concept of regeneration fits a little cleaner, since having multiple F5 copies seems to take away from their individual uniqueness. The regeneration could take them back to childhood with new faces/bodies, and like The Doctor, each regeneration could develop new personalities with chosen memory suppression to cope with being 4000 years old while living with loved ones who die every 100 years.

Not a stretch

brad — Thu, 12 Jun 2008 02:14:44 -0700

The final 5 are 4,000 years old. They are from Earth. What you learned about the other Cylons tells you very little, except for the fact those other Cylons were probably patterned after and programmed by the final 5. The 7 Cylons resurrection hub would be the “other” hub. The F5 while called finals would be best called the original 5, but that would not be a name they would use in the show.

So if they are 4,000 years old, why play around with fake memories of fake childhoods? Why not have hundreds of childhoods?

And there seems to be more than one copy out there, because somebody’s out there manipulating things, taking Starbuck to Earth, etc.

Cylons So far...

ent — Wed, 11 Jun 2008 23:46:44 -0700

With a stretch, the Final 5 could have their own regeneration ship, but beyond that, there would be a large twist on downloading their own consciousness into a new baby's body, and then "forget" past lives. It sounds like the Final 5 have only 1 copy of themselves, so the adult would have to cease to exist when the baby is born.

We know that any Cylon can be programmed to "think" they had a past, including a childhood (ie Tyrol). I don't recall any evidence of family members "verifying" that they gave birth or grew up. So far, the Cylons chosen to be revealed, have had only their own memory of their past.

Cylon means more than one thing

brad — Mon, 02 Jun 2008 20:50:08 -0700

You are confusing the 7 Cylons you first saw with the final 5. Two entirely different species whose only commonality is that the 5 seem to have played some role in creation of the new generation and programming them. The 5 are thousands of years old, and play by entirely different rules, and they age, and can have kids, and quite probably could be born and have childhoods. (We haven’t seen that, and we have seen Tyrol talk about his childhood, but we certainly haven’t seen anything that would suggest they could not have had childhoods. Hera is having a childhood, as is Nikki, both born of Cylons.)

cylons don't age

ent — Mon, 02 Jun 2008 11:37:48 -0700

Cylons don't age, so they can't have a childhood or a father who remembers them.

ellen tigh

Ophiuchus — Wed, 07 May 2008 07:37:23 -0700

I totally disagree about Ellen not doing anything significant in the fleet,
She was heavily involved in politics, moved herself into supporting Tom Zarek, repeatedly asked Adama about Earth, and how long it would take to get there. And least we mention all the influencing she tried to do to Saul to get things changed, done in higher up areas. Further, shes still recurring in his thoughts/delusions. He sees her instead of the Six in the Brig...and its forgiveness and comfort hes drawn to finding in her. And Also, on top of this, one of the utterances of the First Hybrid (Razor) was this: "The pain of revelation bringing new clarity and in the midst of confusion, he will find her. Enemies brought together by impossible longing. Enemies now joined as one. The way forward at once unthinkable, yet inevitable. And the fifth, still in shadow, will claw toward the light, hungering for redemption that will only come in the howl of terrible suffering." I think that Saul "finds" Ellen in the Six so to speak, they are "enemies Brought together by imossible longing". Keep in mind too that Cylons as we know it are capable of induring intense physical demands, Ellen tigh wasnt shot when she died....she was poisoned... and left behind. Maybe her body could have metablozied the poison after a while...and waking up after that, realizing what had been done to her and why...she'd have a MASSIVE HUNGER FOR REDEMPTION..and that redemption could only come in the "Howl of Terrible Suffering".
My two cents.

Evidence

Adam Fields — Thu, 01 May 2008 11:57:01 -0700

The evidence is pretty compelling to me:

Lampkin says he knew Joe Adama, who taught him everything he knew. An Anakin/Darth Vader revelation if ever there was one.
Eye contact is very important on the show, and there's a blatant closeup eye-contact scene between Lampkin and Apollo.
Leoben is said to mix truth and lies, and the statement "Adama is a Cylon" does in itself mix truth and lies if you take this interpretation.
It is definitely a holy shit moment.
There's a prominent appearance of Joseph Adama's historical record at the end of S3. The unearthing of his law books would seem to serve some larger purpose than refocusing Apollo's career, instead reminding us of the character who's going to be appearing himself soon.
It offers an entirely new twist on human/cylon half-breed.
The implied similarities that would permit transfer of a human consciousness/soul/whatever to a Cylon body parallel the ongoing "we're more alike than you know" storylines, e.g.: shared visions.

Ok, that's interesting

brad — Thu, 01 May 2008 09:40:59 -0700

So far we have been told that none of the humanoid Cylons are copies of actual people/colonials, and that the 12 models were supposed to match 12 human archetypes. (The latter was said long ago and may not be valid.)

However, it is indeed unresolved if the Final Five have always had the same form in every incarnation the way that the 7 younger Cylons do. It does allow some interesting plots if they don’t, in which case the final Cylon (or for that matter Tyrol, Anders and Foster) could have been other people who died before those bodies were born/created.

So this is an interesting one, and it does create a “holy shit” moment.

Adama is a Cylon

Adam Fields — Wed, 30 Apr 2008 23:04:28 -0700

My guess - Romo Lampkin is the final Cylon. He is also Joseph Adama, who at some point downloaded his consciousness into a Cylon body and has been running the show since.

Why a reaction?

brad — Wed, 30 Apr 2008 10:09:30 -0700

I think Joe Adama would evoke a holy shit because most of the audience is still not clear how it could be possible for Adama to be the son of a Cylon. Of course if the “Caprica” sheets are correct, he’s at least one of the creators of the Cylons, and Bill should know that, though Lee might not.

The moment would be the return of Joe Adama, and the reactions of Bill and Lee, it would be a total upheaval for them, and much of the audience. While I believe the Final 5 have been living with the colonists for thousands of years, having many hybrid children, most viewers don’t even see that as possible, they didn’t see Tigh as possible.

The biggest “Oh shit” characters would be Apollo, Bill Adama or Roslin, with Baltar would be harder to classify, as would Starbuck.

Moore Not Clear

Lisa — Wed, 30 Apr 2008 06:40:13 -0700

"But the big reason I don’t give much weight to them. It would be boring. Lah-de-dah. Now if we see a lot more character development for Dee or Gaeta or somebody else, that will change my view. But if it does turn out to be her, the reaction will be, “oh. Ok, I guess it could be her.” Not. “Holy Shit!”

I predict this revelation, like Tigh/Tyrol/Anders/Foster will generate a “Holy Shit!” Anything less would not live up to the standards of the show. Actually, this is the one strike against Baltar — too many clues."

I hear what you're saying, but Joseph Adama doesn't pass this particular litmus test either. For a character who has only been talked about to show up suddenly in the last act just doesn't fly with me. It would be weak writing. However, most of the main characters seem to be too obvious a choice, and therefore anticlimactic. The reason revealing Tyrol, Anders, Foster and Tigh as four of the Final Five had such a "holy sh*t" reaction is that they weren't main characters, but they weren't minor characters either. So, who's left in that category?

Moore not clear

brad — Tue, 29 Apr 2008 15:03:53 -0700

You must realize that Moore will, as he did with Starbuck’s “Death” both equivocate and outright lie on central issues like this one. However, he doesn’t have to lie. Read his words carefully. He does not say it, he says “he didn’t want [EW] to ferret that out.” He may have not wanted them to ferret that out because it’s false, for example.

2.) No, just that sentence. He’s talking about who he would make be these 4 Cylons.

3) Look at my blog post about what Baltar said to 3, about which “you were right” could apply.

5) Tons of threads in every online forum on battlestar. But truth is, he just assigned the numbers at random, before he had the final 5 plan I suspect.

So while Dualla is a candidate if you buy it’s a minor character, nothing in your list except her name applies to her, and could not apply to other minor characters like Gaeta, Zarek etc.

But the big reason I don’t give much weight to them. It would be boring. Lah-de-dah. Now if we see a lot more character development for Dee or Gaeta or somebody else, that will change my view. But if it does turn out to be her, the reaction will be, “oh. Ok, I guess it could be her.” Not. “Holy Shit!”

She is a popular choice

Lisa — Tue, 29 Apr 2008 12:30:50 -0700

1. What's the debate about? Moore pretty clearly admits it to EW.
2. I'll have to listen to the whole podcast at some point, then.
3. I admit this doesn't directly point to Dualla, that most of the evidence for her is out of a process of elmination, but how does this implicate Baltar? If it is Baltar she sees in the column of the light of the Final Cylon, then she's standing there with two models of him. You'd think she'd at least look back at the one standing behind her. For me, this scene casts doubt on Baltar being the Final.
4. True, about patterns of sexual selection. So, are you going by personality archetypes then? Sort of like those represented by the zodiac?
5. "The numbering was assigned at random. Many have debated these numbers, not sure why you have not seen it." Where? I haven't see this anywhere, and I've just discovered your site the other day, so if you've gone over it already, please point me to it.
6. I haven't kept up with Caprica retcon info.
7. It doesn't specifically.
8. "Virus affects S7, we don’t know about F5." Yep, I said that.
9. It doesn't rule her out either.
10. Yep.

She is a popular choice

brad — Mon, 28 Apr 2008 13:18:06 -0700

Though there seem to be no specific clues relating to her. I can’t say I am thrilled with your list of 13 points:

Whether he really said it’s somebody not in the photo remains a hot item of debate, but I agree, if it’s true it raises her chances (along with Gaeta, Joe Adama etc.)
This was talking about the 4 revealed, not the 5th one.
Wow. I find it very hard to read this as a clue for Dualla. It’s strongly a clue for Baltar. Why does she tell him “you were right?”
Races are just patterns of appearance based on sexual selection, not archetypes. On the other hand, women are indeed under-represented.
The numbering was assigned at random. Many have debated these numbers, not sure why you have not seen it.
One of the popular clues that points to several characters. However, in a retcon, it seems that Tamara Adama is a Cylon.
How does this point to Dee?
Virus affects S7, we don’t know about F5.
Again, hardly a clue for Dee.
Yes, a popular clue for her, the only clue specific to her.

11-13. About Starbuck etc. Note that they are not from another galaxy. M8 was an object known to Adama, which means they live within about 10-20,000 light years at most.

People seem to suspect Dee mostly, as you do by process of elimination. I would like to see some clues that actually point specifically to her. Her name is not enough. Why is she in shadow, hungering for redemption that will only come in great pain?

Ronald D. Moore has already

Lisa — Mon, 28 Apr 2008 09:24:40 -0700

My vote is for Dualla and here are thirteen reasons why.

Joseph Adama as a Cylon

brad — Wed, 11 Apr 2007 15:21:10 -0700

I previously wrote a bit about slavery and have since learned that indeed, those developing the Caprica prequel intended primarily to cover that topic in the series.

So let me advance an interesting, if only modestly probable theory: Joseph Adama is a Cylon.

As I noted, it now seems likely that Joseph Adama protested the development of the Cylons because they would be slaves. This would make even more sense if he was our mystery #1 Cylon. The show, we are told, tells the story of an often repeated cycle. At least three times, it appears, humans have created Cylons (presumably as slaves each time) and there has been a war, and the “humans” have fled into space. It is not clear to me if the Final Five, who have watched this several times by now, would like to break that cycle or feel they must guide it. However, it is interesting to imagine Joseph Adama as a Cylon trying to break the cycle, trying to convince the colonials not to make a new race of slaves, who he knows will eventually revolt and destroy them.

He fails of course. But it does explain how his associates have gravitated around his son and grandson, and how they escape the genocide and lead the fleet away on the 3rd (at least) exodus.

The main reason I find this interesting is that the revalation would be dramatic. Even though Joseph Adama is an unseen character on the show, his arrival as a Cylon would create a great dramatic reveal. And of course, the reaction on the faces of the younger Adamas. Plus, as we know, the sometimes prophetic, sometimes lying Leoben declared “Adama is a Cylon.”

Update: New information released about the prequel Caprica series adds a lot of complexity to Joesph Adama, the Adama family and the Cylons. They can be read as making it far less likely, or oddly, more likely, that he could be the final Cylon.