Brad Ideas - The Final Five from Earth and the Watchtower - Comments

Oh Ya!

Anonymous — Wed, 25 Jun 2008 10:33:46 -0700

I forgot about the scene with Tyrol and Adama at the bar when Tyrol got himself demoted. Anders eyes (forgot that also) clinch it to so the five are more like the other Cylons than human. Everyone can project then.

Who can project

brad — Wed, 25 Jun 2008 10:27:29 -0700

Well, Tigh sees his dead wife and Tyrol heard and saw Adama say a strange line about Cally, so the final 5 do this too.

And they’ve got super strength and signaling devices in their eyes, so they aren’t true Earth humans, though I admit that would be a nice irony, to have them be the only real humans living among the colonies.

However, the vision in the Temple of Five was of them. If it was recorded 4,000 years ago when they built the temple, that means they are artificial and constantly recreate the same bodies. It is also possible the temple vision was “live”, in which case it was of other copies of the same bodies. Or that it was a recently updated recording.

Projecting

Anonymous — Wed, 25 Jun 2008 05:37:32 -0700

Six explained projecting to Baltar once and it was the Cylons ability to create any view of their surroundings they wanted. They showed Baltar walking through halls of a Baseship when Six said she was walking through a forest because she wanted to. They snapped the camera back and forth between these perspectives. It was clear to me at the time that Cylons can do this at will and its been shown many times that the Colonials can do it under stress, unconsciously or under specific circumstances. Baltar did this from the Mini-Series with Head Six but you mentioned him. Apollo did it also after he was shot down in the Blackbird. He was flouting in space but from his perspective it looked to me (when I watched it later on DVD a few times) like he was projecting that he was flouting in a quarry on a summer day on Caprica. Adama projects every weeding anniversary that he is talking to his deceased wife. People might call this daydreaming but I don’t think so. I think Apollo and Adama have the ability to project and don’t think its anything more than daydreaming. I didn’t think much of Apollo’s episode until Adama’s conversations (then I went back to the DVDs and watched both episodes a few times) with his wife but that hit me like a ton of bricks, slap my face, OH YA, moment. He was not remembering past conversations, he was projecting new ones with his wife. Adama can project at will, one day a year and doesn’t think its more than a daydream and doesn’t know what he’s doing is different than what real humans experience because he has never met one. I think all Colonials can project, they don’t know its different than what we do because there none of us left to see the difference. The Colonials are Cylons, just different S7 and programmed to think they are Humans. I think the FF are probably enhanced copies of earth humans. The chief was shown dreaming once and that looked more like a dream to me than projecting, I’m not sure if the FF can project.

My favourite theory

brad — Tue, 24 Jun 2008 20:47:49 -0700

Yup, that everybody is artificial (which is to say, a form of Cylon) is my favourite backstory here. There is as yet no direct evidence for it. My main point of indirect evidence is

They can’t tell the difference between themselves and the Cylons, not even with a microscope. Makes no sense — unless they are programmed not to see it
The “humans” still can receive visions, projections etc. At least Roslin, the Oracles, Baltar and Starbuck do. They are not all the final Cylon.

Who are the humans?

Hannah — Tue, 24 Jun 2008 19:45:57 -0700

I know the colonial fleet is referred to as being human, but now that we have some evidence that Earth is very much our Earth, we have to consider which race of people is our people.

It seems there are at least three (possible four) races of "people": the "humans", the 7 cylons, the Four, and the One. Which of these makes up humanity as we know it? The human mind seems accessible to the cylons, so perhaps the humans are in fact part cylon. If the Earth people (assuming we find some - I think we will) are actual people, then the fleet is most likely something else.

I do not think that the Four are Earth-humans, but I think the One might be. Prior to seeing Razor, I theorized that the human-cylons did not evolve from the centurians at all but rather re-enslaved them. Although that no longer seems possible, I'm open to the truth containing similar components, such as that the cylons themselves are collaborated race.

As for the song, I think that the lyrics are definitely significant:
"There are many here among us
Who feel that life is but a joke
But you and I we've been through that
And this is not our fate
So let us not talk falsely now
The hours getting late"

This seems to indicate that the final cylons do in fact die, and will die soon.

Ophiuchus: The 13th Zodiac Sign

Anonymous — Mon, 19 May 2008 08:54:31 -0700

Just out of interest, Brad, I thought I'd mention the controversy over a missing 13th Zodiac sign. I have no idea if it has anything to do with the creative inspiration behind BSG or the re-imagined series but it might stimulate some interesting discussion.

http://www.geocities.com/astrologyconstellations/ophiuchus.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ophiuchus

The Final Fifth and the Unknown Sixth

jme17 — Sun, 18 May 2008 00:54:17 -0700

I'm calling the Final Fifth:
The producers of BSG have said that the final fifth cylon will not be a character that has been central to the show. So before this, we were strongly considering Baltar, perhaps Roslin, adn ow more recently with the singing Gaeta. However, we have to remember one event in particular. Season 3 Episode 8. In this episode we learn that Bill Adama is responsible for starting the cylon war. We also come to learn of a rather insignificant character seems to be created for a filler episode - Bulldog. Bulldog, who conveniently escapes from a baseship and has raiders on him that miss firing on him (Hmm . . . where else have I seen a Cylon miss or not shoot at point blank range? Season 4 opener perhaps?). Furthermore, when we remember that Diana apologizes says "I'm sorry . . . I had not idea" we believe she might be apologizing to Baltar who she had recently tortured, but it may in fact be Bulldog, whom she toyed with the most.

The Unknown Sixth
Also, going on the whole definition of revelations and apocalypse. (See Wiki: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apocalypse). We see that something will be revealed to human and Cylon. Furthermore, we can then introduce the idea of the antichrist.
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"Beast" - Endtime Ruler; also known as Antichrist
In the Old and New Testaments, a particular individual is singled out as the particular focus of God's wrath. This individual is known in biblical scripture by many titles such as the "beast", the "little horn"[17][18], the "prince that will come" and other titles. One ancient prince was singled out in scripture, the Prince of Tyrus, who may be considered a 'type' of antichrist. [19]

After the judgment of the Prince of Tyrus, God directs the prophet Ezekiel to write a judgment about the King of Tyrus, and from the scripture is learned that this individual is not a human being, but "the anointed cherub that covereth". [20] From further reading of the text it is learned that the cherub being addressed here is Lucifer (or Satan), as this was his former position before the throne of God before his fall. Satan is also viewed as a 'prince'[21] [22][23] that will eventually be judged.

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This points to Baltar. So who do you know that the Cylon God has machinations, can apparently "project" like other seraphim/cherubs (cylons), and essentially can do whatever he wants in the fleet?

Furthermore, in the Opera House, we see that there are 6 banners, when for the FInal 5. I used to think this banner was reserved Hera ("The First of God's new generation") but since there are two such children Atehna's and Tyrol's child (a proverbial Adam and Eve, of course that's if Cali didn't cheat), there should be seven banners. Instead, since Baltar has a hand in all of this, acting as the neccessary evil left hand of God, we can give Baltar this special honour.

One more thing!!! The Six Delusion and Baltar Delusion both appear To Gauis. The Baltar Delusion is also known to appear to Caprica Six. Furthermore, Hera starts drawing about Caprica Six, an allusion to the Opera House and the next step that is coming where Hera is the child of Both Baltar and Six Delusion (Angel of God/God). Six. Six. Six. Although there are a Final Five set of cylon, we can see that the sixth banner points to Baltar.

Other questions for considerations:
On a seperate note, if Hera is the next of God's new generation, then what about Tyroll's son. He hasn't really been given any significance, and I don't even think I know his name. What is the role of "God's new generation" when considering the theory that "humans", the Final 5, and the Significant 7 are all humanoid AIs based on the originals humans of earth?

Like other Scifi, Ghost in the Shell, the Matrix, Neuromancer (River Styx oddly familiar to beach seen), we see this idea of "1 is not enough, 2 is too many." Meaning, there is a fusion between man and machine to make a new life. And it is this new life that is endeared with evolution. In all these films, we see that machine based beings cannot reproduce sexually and are copies, therefore they cannot evolve, BUT we also see humans are struggling with the limitations of their being are willing to go to some measures to "beat the meat." As a result, both consciousness tend to meld, and are able to gain a more holistic insight into the universe.

So, in order to keep this scifi/cyborg themes consistent, then the "new generation of God's children" represent something fundamentally different and new. And therefore, if everyone is some kind of cylon, or an advanced cylon breeding with an F5 or inferior S7 cylon, then the the "new generation" is not new or novel at all, nor holds new evolutionary relevance. They're an evolutionary dead end, or unintended accidents. But given their significance, which has been building since season 1 episode 3, to the end of season 1, through 2, unto the Opera House scene in Season 3, there must be some other reason attached to their existance and creation. And I believe discovering this holds the key to understanding what the FRAK is going on in the BSG universe.

My first impression of

Anonymous — Fri, 16 May 2008 04:36:36 -0700

My first impression of Starbuck's Viper exploding was it may have been an visual artefact from her slipping through a wormhole and she's be back. I'm more used to British TV so seeing a major character killed off only to return later isn't a novelty. Returning in a squeaky clean Viper and the fact that Ron Moore and Jamie Bamber seem to have a few cross-cultural conversations in their private time looks worth noting.

It's looking pretty strongly like Kara's mind was scooped up at the moment of death and placed ina replica body, and a later episode on earth has something to say about this. Some of the comics point to the Cylons scooping peoples minds to study and embed in prototype bodies, so the general idea looks ballpark. In fact, in one comic this is exactly what happens to Zak.

It's hard to seen how much Ron had planned or how much evolved but we are where we are. One theme that seems to have developed is the idea that humans and Cylons are essentially the same. The biological versus technical implementations are merely different ways of expressing it. My Buddhist take on this is that transcendence, enlightenment, or the evolution of mind is a key theme.

Ron seems to like his symmetry. It's interesting to note that as the Cylons are having to struggle with the issue of permanent death so a door to resurrection opens for the humans. The background static of Baltar commenting on the one god, and a comment from the patient Roslin talks to that 'unless a god was everyone's god it wasn't much of a god' are another interesting hand wave.

The Final Five from Earth and the Watchtower

brad — Tue, 13 May 2008 20:53:07 -0700

The big confirmation in Faith was the line from the Hybrid: “The missing 3 will give you the 5 from the home of the 13th.” While there is still some potential in the minds of some viewers that the 13th will turn out to be something other than the “13th tribe” this seems to confirm what other clues have been saying for quite some time in the show: The Final Five are from Earth.

While this was not news to readers of this blog, I did find it a bit interesting that she referred to the “home of the 13th” because it remains my contention that there never was a 13th tribe. That “the 13th tribe” is really a mythologized name for the people of the homeworld, who never were a tribe, per se. But since the scrolls wish to hide the true story and the origin of the Kobolians, the authors gave them the name of a tribe and a story. And indeed, since the 12 tribes all have names from the Earth zodiac, and the supposed 13th tribe “left” for Earth 2,000 years before the exodus from Kobol, this makes a lot of sense. If the 13th tribe existed and had a name, it is not from the zodiac (No, Ophiuchus doesn’t count) and it’s really the first tribe. But you can’t call them that without leaking the truth.

However, the Hybrid’s use of “the 13th” suggests perhaps more reality for this tribe. It’s possible there was a tribe of Kobolians who did a return expedition to Earth, though I am not quite sure what that explains in the plot. We could have the Final Five being from Earth in several ways. They could have originated in a repopulated Earth, for example.

However, the plot that makes the most sense has the Final Five originating on the real Earth, some time in the not too distant future, and playing a part in the 3 cycles of human/AI war, exodus and resettlement.

In fact, while I did not suggest it seriously at first, I considered it a cute plot point to suggest the Final Five were in fact once ordinary humans who came of age in the late 20th century and then uploaded into machine form some time in the 21st. And as 20th century humans, they could have found that “All Along the Watchtower” was a favourite song of the group, and thus programmed it to be the “wakeup song” used when it is time to make sleeper copies of themselves, planted among the regular humans, become aware of what they are.