Brad Ideas - Virtual Six/Baltar as the Final Cylon - Comments

Not Lee's fleet

brad — Thu, 07 Aug 2008 09:49:19 -0700

She says to to Roslyn, not Lee, and unless Bill Adama revealed important intelligence, she would not even know that Lee was running the council.

four in your fleet

Big O — Thu, 07 Aug 2008 06:44:43 -0700

Lee can not be counted out from D'Anna's comment. D'Anna says there are "four in YOUR fleet." Which of course there were. Lee is the leader of the fleet and also the one being spoken to so he does not have to be included in the group we are counting from. If we consider Lee as the 5th that comment can still be truthful. Her reference to 'YOUR fleet' could be a sarcastic jab at Lee and his continued humanity. Just a thought.....

Baby swapping

brad — Sat, 02 Aug 2008 14:46:45 -0700

While baby-swapping is the simplest low-tech way to have a Cylon be raised by a human family that thinks its their own, the final 5 have very advanced biotech, and could possibly arrange for their minds to be transmitted into a baby in a number of other ways, especially if everybody is a Cylon at the core.

While I agree this is not particularly likely, if it’s likely for anybody it’s Lee, since the as co-creator of the new generation Cylons, the Adama family is clearly of strong interest to the Final Five. Others of the F5 got very close to him, too many to be an accident.

Live Free or Brain Fart

Anonymous — Sat, 02 Aug 2008 14:05:49 -0700

I can't stretch to Apollo being the Final Cylon because that messes too much with Adama's history and baby swapping.

Not just this

brad — Fri, 01 Aug 2008 06:59:11 -0700

If Lee were the final Cylon, would D’Anna have played that game of brinksmanship and hostages with him over the final five? Would she not have come to him and greeted him when she arrived on Galactica?

Blah! - There are 13 places

ladybird — Fri, 01 Aug 2008 06:07:59 -0700

Blah! - There are 13 places in the Last Supper. What if the final cylon and the cylon god are two different entities? What is Lee looking at? The holy grail:

From Wikipedia:

According to Christian mythology, the Holy Grail was the dish, plate, or cup used by Jesus at the Last Supper, said to possess miraculous powers. The connection of Joseph of Arimathea with the Grail legend dates from Robert de Boron's Joseph d'Arimathie (late 12th century) in which Joseph receives the Grail from an apparition of Jesus and sends it with his followers to Great Britain; building upon this theme, later writers recounted how Joseph used the Grail to catch Christ's blood while interring him and that in Britain he founded a line of guardians to keep it safe.

Oh my god! I just realized

Ladybird — Fri, 01 Aug 2008 05:39:49 -0700

Oh my god! I just realized something... in this scene, V6 tells Baltar that it's god's choice to shoot down the Olympic Carrier and HE wants Baltar to repent. Who's choice is it to pull the trigger? It's Lee's choice and he says as much to Adama at the end of the scene. Now I am begging you to look at this and throw out everything you know or think you know about the final cylon. Lee's flashback in Water is edited differently. But both scenes provide information.

When he sees his reflection in the mirror, he has an expression of shock and horror. This triggers the flashback. I'm giving up at this point. Lee has an evil
twin. Cause if it's Ellen, and everything seems to point to Ellen; I have to say that I find this choice extremely boring and uninspiring and I'm not sure even want to watch anymore.

Yep, Lee is out by all

Ladybird — Fri, 01 Aug 2008 04:41:08 -0700

Yep, Lee is out by all accounts. All I'm saying is have a look at this scene in "33" in slow-mo and the scene in "water" where Lee has the flashback in slo-mo and perhaps listen to the commentary on "33" for that specific scene. When I saw this myself, I was disbelieving of what I saw. It's an anomoly. I wonder if Lee was written as the final cylon in the early stages and that plan changed later.

But Lee is so out

brad — Fri, 01 Aug 2008 00:13:01 -0700

He’s in the Last Supper picture.

He’s in the fleet, running it, when D’Anna declares there are “four in your fleet.”

People doubt either of these clues, but both of them being wrong?

If “Four in your fleet” is wrong, then I guess Gaeta is my backup choice. If the Last Supper is wrong I go with Baltar. Nothing gets us Lee.

Brain Fart with a Vengeance

Anonymous — Thu, 31 Jul 2008 20:33:38 -0700

I liked Cottle. The actor played that character very well for me. You're right that Cottle doesn't have much of a fleshed out story within BSG but the character had presence. That's not me finding excuses to make Cottle the Final Cylon, just an observation. As much as the plot could be twisted and the character fleshed out to make Cottle the Final Cylon, I can't see a case that stacks up.

Something else on Lee... in

Ladybird — Thu, 31 Jul 2008 19:48:22 -0700

Something else on Lee... in the commentary for Razor, Ron Moore talks about deleted scenes being important for informing the actors choices about the character even if the scenes don't make it into the final cut. Razor only has 2 deleted scenes and one of them is Lee and Kara watching video of the destruction of the Olympic Carrier. Lee is clearly obsessed with the idea that he may have killed one person who's shadow he thinks he sees. This scene takes place on the Galactica 12 hours after the event. This scene is so out of context for the movie Razor, I wonder why it's even included. Why are we being pointed to episode "33" and that specific scene?

If I throw everything out about the final cylon and just ask the question, which character would have the most emotional resonance as the final cylon; it would have to be Lee. Because he is our knight in shining armour, Dudley Do-Right and for Lee to discover that he's responsible for the genocide, would cause a howl of terrible suffering. He is also standing in his father's shadow until he leaves the military.

Yes, that's right! I did go

Lynn M. Seguin — Thu, 31 Jul 2008 16:40:00 -0700

Yes, that's right! I did go back and watch "33" with the commentary and the specific scene with Lee is slightly different but the image of him smirking is there and more pronounced. There are some very psychadelic looking frames. Playing with the light indeed! What is odd about the commentary is that when they get to this scene; they spend a lot of time talking about filming actors in helmets, playing with the light, how this makes their faces look different, makes them look like they have gone to another place. At the end of the scene, the director says "I never saw that" and Ron Moore quickly moves the converstion elsewhere. Ron Moore says "Danny came up with a little slow-mo at the end." I'm always curious about flashbacks, because they represent an editing choice. So I tend to look at them in slow-mo to see what the filmaker is pushing into the subconcious. Ron Moore also says at the end of the episode that when he wrote the 5 season storyline arc that "it" all started here (I assume meaning the episode). There is also a very odd comment that the director concerning Jaimie's portrayal of the character "that he (Lee) is haunted by the event and not by Grampa Joe and the twins." I wonder if the final cylon has to be a tie in to inform the new Caprica series in some way.

I also watched Razor with the commentary again because they talk about the writing process and RDM also reiterated that writing in the beginning is more constructed and thought out and the process becomes more organic and flexible as you go along.

I'm not sure about Ellen at this point but I think the final cylon was decided right from the get go and I think the commentary on "33" was a little giddy. Like the cat with the canary.

Inside Lee's Head

Anonymous — Thu, 31 Jul 2008 15:55:37 -0700

There's another episode where we get a peak into Lee Adama's head. I can't remember the name of the episode, but its the one where his bird gets blown up and he has to eject from the cockpit. For hours he floats in space as his oxygen level drops due to a tear in his suit. And at the very beginning of this episode, in a bit of foreshadowing, we see Lee floating in a large pool of water, most likely a lake. He is obviously hallucinating here, but the image in his head is very striking, in that it is eerily similar to the state cylons find themselves in when reborn: semi-conscious, naked (well nearly in Lee's case), and of course submerged in a tub of liquid. As an insight into his mental framework, it is telling. Not that I think it proves Lee's a cylon (despite the apparent "projection" ability), but it does lend credibility to the argument that this cylon God has the ability to project visions into the psyches of "humans" and cylons alike.

My main cottle issues

brad — Thu, 31 Jul 2008 13:28:49 -0700

My main problem with Cottle is that he’s too minor a character. Yes, he’s a character you like, unlike Ellen, but he really is just not that important to the scheme of things. Ellen presents at least an interesting dramatic story:

Two ancient human lovers are part of a team of 5 who created the Cylon race and uploaded themselves to become advanced AI beings
To retain their humanity, they incarnate themselves as ordinary humans, unaware of who they are
In spite of this lack of awareness, the lovers find themselves and marry, but continue a centuries long on-again, off-again fight
Part of this fight has Ellen screwing Cavil and betraying the resistance.
For this, Tigh, in great pain, has to kill her.
Ellen wakes up in a tank, merged with her old self, suddenly aware of all this history, and the horrible thing she has done, and Tigh has done to her.
Angry, she plans to put Tigh through some more pain before they reconcile.

That’s a plot I could support. Much more than I can see in a plot for Cottle. Cottle, to me, is a 2 dimensional character. He’s the crusty old doctor. We know nothing of his personal life, really nothing non-medical about him. He seems an odd choice to me. Moore likes giving us characters that have more depth, and the final Cylon should be one of them.

i hope it's cottle

Anonymous — Thu, 31 Jul 2008 12:26:09 -0700

RDM's "clues" about the final cylon make it (a) virtually impossible to figure out who the last cylon is and (b) leaves the audience with few, if any, satisfying options.

So far, the final cylon is: someone we've seen before, who's been around since season one, who wasn't with the fleet in the most recent episode, who did not appear in the Last Supper photo, and who wants to be forgiven (don't we all).

It's possible that Deanna lied about only four being with the fleet, just as it's possible that Leoben lied with his "Adama is a cylon" line. So I think we can dismiss this one, if only because with it the options are very uninspiring.

Even so, we still are left with few choices befitting the identity of the final cylon and the huge piece of the "plan" likely to be revealed along with it.

Frankly, I'll be annoyed and let down if it ends of being Ellen Tigh. She's not a very good actress. Her character is probably the most stereotypical and unimaginative and in most scenes it's as if she strayed in from the set of Desperate Housewives. If they bring her back as some all-knowing being... The only thing worse would be to have it be Dirk Benedict (the original Starbuck, and Face from the A-Team).

This is where Cottle comes in. As the ship's doctor, he has been involved throughout the show with nearly all of the major characters and in many of the major plot lines, the most significant being the birth of Sharon and Helo's child.

There's also something very... 20th Century about him. I see the Final Five as the five original programmers of a vast computer system (ala Skynet) on earth, in the early 21st century. The story goes something like this: the computer system becomes self-aware. The five figure out how to download themselves onto the system. The humans don't like what's going on and try to shut the system down, provoking a war... Humans and the earth are destroyed, but the system (with the five) flee to Kobol and bio-engineer a new human race.

If the Final Five really are the original five programmers, you can imagine Cottle being part of their group, if not the head. And if they were all programmers, it makes sense that they're mostly guys (just ask anyone who's ever been to a computer programming conference).

Cottle is a terrific actor, and you could see his character, once revealed, being able to dish out some of the major pieces of the puzzle to the rest in a way that gives the show's endgame the right amount of gravitas and drama. It'd be a shame to waste his talents and let Ellen Tigh slur her way through a brief monologue (in between items on QVC).

So, basically, this is my subjective, somewhat irrational conclusion: I hope it's Cottle, since the other known options stink.

Virtual Six/Baltar as the Final Cylon

brad — Mon, 28 Jul 2008 23:17:20 -0700

A suggestion in a comment by a reader led me to an interesting hypothesis, which eerily fits the facts.

There is a being — I have generally believed it to be the Cylon god and/or master programmer — who appears to several characters as a virtual or “head” character. Baltar sees this being as his Six, but has also seen it in Baltar form. Caprica Six sees this being as a Baltar, because Baltar was her lover. Starbuck saw this being as a Leoben. It’s possible that Tigh is seeing it as Ellen, on top of Caprica Six. Roslin may have seen it as Elosha. There might be more than one mysterious being behind these visions, but let’s posit there’s just one for now.

Let’s imagine this being is the Final Cylon. When D’Anna stepped into the Temple of Five, she saw 5 figures, one of whom led her to beg forgiveness. If the Final Cylon is the entity behind these virtual beings, in what form did she see it? It could be any form, of course, but it might well be the form of her lover, Baltar. (After all, that’s how Caprica Six sees the being, also as her lover.) And she would apologize to him, and then tell Cavil that “there are five other Cylons” which she would not do if she saw a Six or Leoben or Eight.

She thinks it’s Baltar, but it’s not. It’s virtual Baltar she saw. But she tells real Baltar “you were right” about his claim that he’s a Cylon. But he’s wrong — though he is still the chosen one. Virtual Six has told him that she and Baltar will be parents of the new race.

When she awakes, she shows the most concern for Baltar. Of course, that could be because they were lovers, but it seems like more. And then she tells Roslin “There are Four in your Fleet.” She knows this because she thinks it’s Baltar. She is right, though, there are only four in the fleet.

Now this also jibes with a lot of clues

Virtual Being has been around since the miniseries.
Virtual Being is almost always played by a regular, not a guest star. Moore ruled out Guest Stars
In a sense, Virtual Being is a regular, and one of the most popular characters on the show thanks to being mostly played by Helfer and Callis.
Fits very well with the “You have heard my voice many times but don’t know my name” clue.
Virtual Being is potentially not in the “Last Supper” photo, if you take the central Six there to be Caprica Six. She does look like Virtual Six, particularly in how Baltar looks at her and her dress, but this would be a clever trick. Virtual Six and original Caprica six are identical in appearance, of course.
It’s a shocker. But it explains things. Virtual Being is “The one who programmed us” that D’Anna talks about before being boxed. The one pulling the strings. The one who took Starbuck to Earth and triggered the four Cylons to awaken.
Virtual Baltar can be (a form of) the final Cylon while Baltar is still human or has another role.
Virtual Being has physical powers, possibly becoming Shelley Godfrey, and picking up Baltar when he’s down.
Virtual Being is not asleep however, so Gaeta’s song does not jibe.
Of all the regulars — indeed of all the significant characters, Virtual Being is the only one fans don’t suspect of being the final Cylon. We keep being told by series insiders that “nobody” is guessing right.
We’re also told that the ending makes it all make sense, that though they admit they wrote the ending later, it seems like it’s been planned from the start. Virtual Being has been a central show mystery from the start.
It does not mesh well with the First Hybrid’s line about the “fifth, still in shadow” clawing for the light and seeking redemption.
In a deleted scene, we see Virtual Six saying goodbye to Baltar. He won’t be seeing her any more. Would this highly popular character vanish from the series conclusion? Or does she move on to a more interesting role? She does say “other angels will light your path.”

Why don’t fans suspect it? Because they already thought of Virtual Being as a Cylon from the start, because for so long it was in the form of Six. But Virtual Being clearly is not one of the 7 Cylons in any way, but has been using Baltar for its own agenda. Virtual Being’s status as a Cylon is hidden in plain sight.

Food for thought, considering how slim the other choices, are, with Ellen Tigh currently in the lead.