Brad Ideas - The real Earth stars - Comments

'Beta Cat'

Gates — Tue, 24 Mar 2009 14:32:57 -0700

Generally, I've found that people who anonymously proclaim themselves to be 'alpha dog' on the internet are rarely if ever actual 'alpha dog'(s) in real life. Because, my friend, alpha dogs aren't so transparently self-referential, even in comments that appear to be asides.

Very interesting to say the

Anonymous — Sun, 15 Feb 2009 01:16:24 -0800

Very interesting to say the least to read ALL of these comments on such a good show that I actually STOPPED watching between season 3-4 ...(I'm more of a Stargate Fan..the REAL SG-1 not the new crap)

What I was thinking when I was reading this is what if the earth is BEHIND the moon that she took a picture of and never saw OUR Earth. If you think about it maybe it happened like an eclipse and it was exactly behind the moon when she took the picture and she never saw it in the first place ...or forgot about it entirely. Then since they are so close to the "Earth," Maybe they didnt think about it cause Starbuck never really gave them anything to go on and just see a deserted planet floating there in space.

But reading the comments here gave me another idea,

Since we need to have another fight and since Galactica is breaking down maybe they DO find a planet but it's barely sustainable like before or they just found it and the other cylons show up just in time and they fight it out with ships going down left and right (Figuratively) . So then Adama tells them to go down to the planet and he rams the baseship with Galactica thus taking out BIG technology and stranding the people on the planet. So since they are stranded they try to rebuild with VERY limited resources (They had the ships on "New Caprica" ) and soon found themselves in rags.

Then Gaius sees 6 again but they are at a cosmopolitan bustling with activity and they talk about how "G-D," Has a plan for him and that he needs help and she gives him the details on how to make a very unsophisticated cylon to help them bring back their civilization from the brink and it ends with him rewinding the cycle all over again.

I'm just speculating but I would like to see a twist like that where they start to rebuild and someone builds a cyclon with GOOD intentions....

But all I really know is they HAVE to put Apollo back in a Viper!!!

homeworlds

Todd — Wed, 11 Feb 2009 11:39:59 -0800

I don't think they've explicitly said that the Colonials believe that Kobol is the original homeworld where humans evolved. All we know is that the Colonials believe that the colonies were settled by an exodus from Kobol. Whether there was another planet before Kobol or not has not been addressed.

Kubrick's Cylons

Lisa — Tue, 10 Feb 2009 07:13:17 -0800

Someone mentioned Kubrick. Let's just hope the Cylons don't have a big black monolith that they bring down to Earth to show those sporty extras.

Genesis of the F5

Lisa — Tue, 10 Feb 2009 07:06:59 -0800

Looking at their cover style on the web site this does not match. And I can find no instance of “Limited” magazine.

Yes and yes. I think the art dept. spoofed a magazine they actually read, but figured most people would never have heard of. Print magazine is targeted at graphic artists/designers.

Since I am moving to thinking that a real Earth is out there, and that at least the Final Five lived on it, possibly as full humans, possibly in the 21st century even, it’s not impossible to imagine that the bodies of the 7 Cylons also came from Earth people. That would contradict something Moore said quite a bit in the beginning, but as we see, he is ready to contradict such things.

We have been told that all the major characters have played this out before, though sometimes in different roles. Leoben had a long bit about this with Starbuck. So Leoben feels that in some way he played a role in past cycles.

Did you hear the latest quote from Aaron Douglas? Since it's potentially spoilery, I'll paste it in down further:
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"Ellen and Tigh are like mom and dad to the rest of us."

Pet Theories

Lisa — Tue, 10 Feb 2009 06:54:49 -0800

I just realized- "Pet theory" might sound insulting. I didn't mean it that way. And I know that you, Lisa, are someone who has a theory, not one of the confused ones. Just wanted to clear that up.

Thanks, Dustin. I've tried to be clear that I'm not so wedded to my own theory that I can't enjoy the show if I turn out to be wrong. The fun for me is in theorizing possible outcomes, but I'm not a mind-reader, so in the end it's just an educated guess as to what the writers will do.

I hear what you're saying though about the assumption regarding where life began for the Colonial humans. I don't think we've been told an actual creation story for humans on Kobol. Rather, we've just been told that humans lived in peace there with the Kobolians and worshiped those Kobolians as gods, even after they were kicked off Kobol. So while the phrase "Life here began out there" often refers to Kobol and the exodus from Kobol, I think it has a wider meaning to include Earth. I agree with Brad in that they haven't explained where the word "Earth" comes from, so there's another reason that makes that case that life could have begun there for the Colonials. Couple all that with the repeating pattern of events ("All this has happened before. All this will happen again.") and I think it's likely there was an exodus from Earth that same way there was an exodus from Kobol.

What is Earth

brad — Mon, 09 Feb 2009 17:34:31 -0800

The show has offered us a planet, which a 13th tribe, made of Cylons, named Earth.

That leaves fans with two options. One is disappointment — for 4 years the show has been about a quest for Earth, a word which of course is full of meaning for us, and it turns out to be some planet completely unrelated to ours. Why is it called Earth, we wonder? Just because that’s the name of the quest planet in the original (where it was supposed to be the real Earth but in a pretty silly way?) If that’s all we get after 4 years of talk of Earth, we won’t be happy.

So many fans see a variety of clues that suggest otherwise. That this planet was not our Earth, but that our Earth does exist and will appear in the show again. (It appeared at the end of season 3 for 1 second.)

Of these two options, the latter is much preferable, so it is a common theory.

One more thing.

Dustin — Mon, 09 Feb 2009 16:20:04 -0800

I just realized- "Pet theory" might sound insulting. I didn't mean it that way. And I know that you, Lisa, are someone who has a theory, not one of the confused ones. Just wanted to clear that up.

Interesting thought about Earth/Kobol

Dustin — Mon, 09 Feb 2009 16:10:31 -0800

"We don't know the reason why humans/cylons left Earth initially to colonize Kobol."

I just wanted to say, I found that sentence very interesting because of a trend I've noticed. Saying that in the show humans evolved on Earth and colonized Kobol when the show states the opposite is usually said by fans for two reasons:

1. That's their pet theory that they're sure enough about to state with that much certainty.

2. They're confused- people who simply take what the show says as fact until stated otherwise for simplicity's sake but who get it mixed up during the discussion- like podcasts I have listened to. One quote after 4x10 from one 'caster being "They left Earth for a reason- of course it was crappy!" when talking about the state of Earth and basically saying "What did you expect?" The actual quote is much more clear, as I am paraphrasing from memory, but he clearly has the (stated up to that point in the show)backstory mixed up, confusing Earth with Kobol. And I've heard other discussions, asking "Didn't they come from Earth to the colonies?" Obviously people know we've evolved on Earth, and I think the show-runners have gone too long without refreshing the audience's memory about the "humans came from Kobol" backstory. IT doesn't matter whether it's wrong or not, it's important simply because it's the entire cast of characters perception of the origin of humankind.

The backstory is important, ESPECIALLY if you're about to say that it's wrong. If they reveal humankind evolved on a planet besides Kobol (our Earth), they need to remind the audience of that supposed Kobol-as-human-homeworld backstory simply so the revelation has the proper impact. Some are forgetting that as far as we know Kobol is the human homeworld.

Anyone else agree on this?

Also, about those extras

Dustin — Mon, 09 Feb 2009 16:09:15 -0800

SPOILER.
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They also asked that they be athletic. I'm guessing based on the requirements that "bathing suit" is a misdirection and they really meant "loincloth." Meaning at some point we see cavemen, either in a flash back or flash-forward. Who knows what it means, but given that the show is very good about making the people "real," (meaning there are overweight and slovenly characters, though how the Chief got so fat on an algae diet is anyone's guess) asking that an entire crop of extras be athletic is very telling.

We don't joke around enough on this blog, but I would like to see them find a new planet and encounter primitives so Starbuck can kick their ass. I've said before there will be no new factions, but if they find primitive humans on Earth, it would give them a reason for the final stand to be to defend the real Earth. If they jump ahead a few generations and show the RFT/Rebel Cylon descendants living a primitive existence(I think they will lose a lot of their technology in the final attacks), then I'm not sure what the point is; the final scenes showing the characters will undoubtedly show the alliance strengthening; jumping ahead a few centuries to reiterate this and seeing their descendants might be redundant.

Not just upside-down

brad — Mon, 09 Feb 2009 14:53:00 -0800

This image of the moon, including the one you use, has been flipped front to back, like in a mirror. Starbuck’s camera image could possibly be flipped, but otherwise it is hard to explain — the fake Earth would not have a mirror image of the real moon, and the real Earth would have the real, non-mirror, moon.

In addition, this moon is in the middle of a partial lunar eclipse, which is quite odd.

Print magazine

brad — Mon, 09 Feb 2009 14:48:41 -0800

Looking at their cover style on the web site this does not match. And I can find no instance of “Limited” magazine. I just wondered if anybody who reads New York magazine has ever seen them use that “NY” logo — it doesn’t match the standard logo they have used for decades.

Now in this photo the paper is square, and it looks very much like modern American urban. But there’s nothing certifiably “New York” in it that I can see.

Some skirting of the science

Anonymous — Mon, 09 Feb 2009 12:19:48 -0800

Some skirting of the science is done for audience reasons and the rest is within bounds of reason. The sound is "from the perspective of the pilot" and FTL is within science even if it's not technically achievable with present technology. Ducking evolution for bullshit is another game entirely. It's stepping outside of wiggle room and deeply into fairy story, and undermines the whole premise on which the show was sold. It's being strung along and being told lies like that which burst the immersion bubble for me.

The first two series were sort of okay but 3 dragged and 4 is rushed. That's bad planning and cutting corners just to hit an arbitrary deadline. I've seen enough crap like that in the games industry and just because it's a TV show and they're slapping each other on the back with "best show on television" doesn't make it right or so. BSG has its plus points and I don't want to grind it too hard as it tips into trolling but to pretend issues don't exist or excuse them is tipping into another form of stupid. I just think people need to be realistic and mature about it.

PRINT Magazine

Lisa — Mon, 09 Feb 2009 08:41:32 -0800

There definitely is a PRINT magazine, which is the name of a mag hanging behind and to the right of Six. Another spoiler that I'm wondering about...
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I'm still wondering about the casting call where they wanted extras of mixed ethnicity, with dreadlocks, comfortable wearing bathing suits.

The problem with the

Dustin — Mon, 09 Feb 2009 04:53:17 -0800

The problem with the naturalistic SF essay is that he lays down the exact points he intends to address in regards to science. There were three. One of them he changed his mind about (sound in space), the others being the speed of light (which is barely referenced outside of FTL) and how the ships maneuver. He wrote this before the mini. After the mini, he was told by an exec to develop the meaning of 6's line "God is love." Then they introduced prophecies, accurate visions, magical baby blood, a Thirteenth Tribe able to discern that someone would be on the algae planet at the exact right moment to see the "Eye of Jupiter," Starbuck returning from the dead hundreds of light years from where she died in a pristine Viper(with no FTL) while her more-intact-than-it-should be body rots on Earth light years away.

The mysticism is rapidly overtaking the science.

I hope you're right, but you should remember everything I said. Come 3/21, you might be very disappointed if you are completely unprepared. I always believed it was the future as well, until I started looking at the facts I previously laid out, and I started to get a nervous feeling in my stomach.

I always thought dramatically (and I know that's how the time period will be chosen- to maximize the drama) that they were trying to break the Cycle of Time/ destruction. If it's in the past, they may have failed. If it's in the future, they will probably succeed. And Lee saying "It doesn't have to happen again" in Revelations implies they were breaking the cycle. If we really get an ending with 6 walking through Times Square a la the mini and in Caprica, then that implies they failed.

It's like this: You're a cautious driver who has to go out driving in the rain through areas where the roads are treacherous during bad weather. I know you're a good driver but I'm still going to tell you to be careful.

The real Earth stars

brad — Wed, 04 Feb 2009 15:45:59 -0800

Michael Hall has been doing a lot of research on the appearance in the show of real Earth starfields. Here, I write an update to my earlier post.

Unfortunately, the results are a little too good. The sky above Earth is unique. You won’t find it anywhere else in the Galaxy. The sky at Alpha Centauri is of course the most similar, but it has a number of striking differences, changing several Zodiacal constellations, and adding an extra very bright star (our Sun) to turn Cassiopeia from a “W” to a “/W”

Hall’s efforts show the exact Earth sky appearing in several places:

The site of the Cylon civil war, making that planet be Jupiter. (This is also the site of Starbuck’s vision of where Earth is.)
Also the location of the Demetrius, where it is met by Leoben’s heavy raider, fleeing that war
Also the site of the rendezvous point between the fleet and the Demetrius
The spot where Adama waits for Roslin and the base star that attacked the Hub to return
The spot where the Tylium ship retreats to after they refuse to have Cylons upgrade their jump drive

In several of these scenes, we are given very obvious Earth star patterns. That is to say, we see the “big 3” of constellations that even non-astronomers readily recognize. The Big Dipper, the W of Cassiopeia, and Orion.

But more telling is we don’t see the Earth sky anywhere else. In particular, not above the ruined home of the 13th colony, which they named Earth. And not in any other places along the way including early episodes. Hall used a really cool new star map detection system which will take any photo of stars and tell you where it is in our sky, or if it isn’t in our sky at all.

On the one hand, if they producers know enough not to use the Earth sky for years, and suddenly they start using it, and even using it (showing Orion and Big Dipper) in a way that fans will be sure to notice, that doesn’t seem like an accident. It’s too odd to think that the graphics department, after carefully not using our sky, would just use it willy-nilly, and more to the point would not use it at the planet the 13th tribe named “Earth.”

On the other hand, they are using it in too many places. To see the Earth sky, notably things like the shield of Orion, you have to be within a short distance of Earth. Perhaps just a light year or more. But there’s nothing else around us in this zone. We’re it. In fact, except for Alpha Centauri and 3 other minor stars, there’s nothing around for 8 light years.

So this bugs me. On the one hand, the use of our sky is too strong to be an accident. On the other hand, now we are to believe that:

The Demetrius sat for days a short distance from Earth, scoped it out, and didn’t see it, even though they are hunting for a system with a ringed gas giant, and a life bearing planet with a large moon.
In fact, while there Starbuck discusses how they have already sent out 2 recon missions in the area, and not found anything, so she demands a third.
The whole fleet sat for weeks or more a short distance from Earth, and never noticed it.
Starbuck just “happened” to pick a rendezvous point to meet up with the fleet that is our solar system.
In spite of Adama ordering the fleet to go to G type stars to look for homes, when the Tylium ship comes to Sol, they don’t bother to scope it out. (I guess if they have already been her for weeks and not seen anything that could make some sense.)
Cavil just happens to pick Jupiter as the site of his ambush.
All of this isn’t too far from the Ionian Nebula supernova remnant. (The closest supernova remnant is Vela, about 800 light years away.)

In particular, when Cavil sets his ambush, he tells the others they will unbox D’Anna, and the closest place to do it is the nearest “accessible server” which is “half a dozen jumps away.” Now 6 Cylon jumps is pretty far, probably as much as 2,000 light years. It is possible he sprang the ambush at one of the intermediate points along the way, but there is no reason Jupiter would just happen to be one of the points along the way.

This adds another confusing point. First of all, how could Cavil “just happen” to pick Jupiter/Earth for the site of his ambush, of all the zillions of stars out there. Secondly, what does it mean that there is an accessible server in the Cylon resurrection network at Jupiter? This would mean the Cylons are no strangers to this region, in which case they would surely notice Earth too. After all, they are also looking for it.

And Earth should stick out. Our giant moon is a dead giveaway; we believe that to be rather unusual. And the spectrum of light from our planet, which includes lots of water and free oxygen, would be a beacon to anybody examining it with space telescopes even from light years away. Free oxygen, it is commonly accepted, is not something you will find unless something (life) is making it, because it is used up quickly in reactions. And real Earth, seen at the end of season 3, is a living planet, with free Oxygen, not a cinder.

So thus the dilemma. The use of the constellations seems deliberate. The Cylon battle site has to be Jupiter, it can be nowhere else. And yet the fleet, Demetrius, Cylon network builders and others have all hung around this system for long periods, and not noticed anything.

So of course one interpretation is a huge writing mistake, and a huge mistake in the graphics department in suddenly deciding after 4 years to start throwing the Earth sky in so many places with the notable exception of the 13th colony. Or perhaps the writers don’t realize just how readily they would see Earth if they hung around these areas with nice space telescopes, as they must have to do the stellar navigation they do.

This wouldn’t be the first production mistake like this. In the episode Torn, Gaeta pulls out a star map he supposedly got from Pegasus. But it’s an Earth star map, complete with Earth names on constellations and modern Earth catalog numbers on the stars. This map makes no sense, and strikes me as a lazy production mistake. We only see it upside-down.

But let’s dig for an alternate explanation. We’re told of a long, repeating history of war and exodus. This must have happened on real Earth as well. The Kobolians fled, or were kicked out. Perhaps they have programming relating to Earth, to block their return to it. Just as Starbuck got compulsions to find Earth (and visions of the real Jupiter) there may be other compulsions not to find it. There may be forces out there that want them to find real Earth, and others that want them not to.

This explains the 13th tribe heading in this direction, and finding a different planet quite nearby and naming it Earth. It might explain Athena being sent on a recon to Earth from the Demetrius and reporting no joy — 3 times. It might explain the presence of a Cylon network node there, but without Cylon conscious awareness of what the location is. We know at least that the 7 Cylons (including Athena) have compulsions programmed into their brains either by, or relating to the Final Five. And we know the Final Five have their own compulsions programmed into their brains, too.

But there is also the question of Cavil. He is Cylon model #1. Is he special? He seems to know things, without letting on. He makes deadpan pronouncements of major consequences if D’Anna sees the Five, or if inhibitors are removed from Centurions. And he somehow picks Jupiter as the site for his ambush, an impossible coincidence.

So something isn’t adding up. Is it a strange mistake. Or a hint of a major mystery?

The Supernova

Another thing that’s not adding up is the Ionian Nebula. This is a supernova remnant — it has to be, because nobody will immediately pull from their minds a plain old nova seen 4,000 years ago. But it must be close to both the 13th colony and real Earth. When they get there, Roslin starts jumping the fleet along the course they went, and Starbuck goes crazy, saying it’s the wrong way. So real Earth is a bit of a backtrack (or at least sideways track) from that remnant.

There are only a few supernova remnants close to us. One of the closest is the Vela nebula, which new research puts only 800 light years away. It exploded, it is suggested, around 11,000 years ago. (I am unsure if that is the date of explosion or the date of light arrival on Earth.) Since the Ionian supernova is dated to 17,000 years ago as seen from the colonies, that fits well with a chronology placing this story 5,000 years in our future.

The Ionian/Vela supernova would have been a big event in Kobol/Algae Planet society, because they would have known in advance it was going to happen. They would have jumped beyond its light cone, meaning that when they got to their new planet, they would know the supernova wave was following them, and could have put out lawn chairs to watch it explode. The legends persist so much that Gaeta still knows about it.

But 800 light years is still a long distance for Starbuck to trek on her exploration, and for the fleet to follow. We are told colonial jumps are in the range of 30 light years before they hit their red-line, so that’s over 25 jumps. However, it does not match very well with being 6 Cylon jumps, as Cylon jumps are supposed to be able to go 10 times further. (Though to contradict that, Cylon upgrades to fleet drives will only give them a 3x improvement. And we don’t know where the Cylons start.)

Hall makes the case that in fact they did a giant backtrack. He thinks they trekked 13,000 light years out to the edge of the galaxy to find the Ionian nebula, and Starbuck and the fleet independently came back that distance or more to get to Earth. I don’t think that’s credible for a lot of reasons. One is that I can’t see a waste processing ship designed for a small set of close colonies ever having the fuel capacity to do that. Nor could they pick a rendezvous point 13,000 light years away so accurately that the Cylon ship and Demetrius jump right into the middle of the fleet.

The Journey

We must also step back and realize that the journey here is probably not a straight line. If the forces guiding them to these planets wanted to, they could have just said, “Here are the coordinates for Earth.” Instead we get a very, very convoluted trek. I hope we see a reason for this trek.

Head out randomly into space. Somehow find Kobol
On Kobol, find a star map that tells you to head in the direction of M8, the Lagoon Nebula.
Along the way find a probe, and a possible lion’s head nebula
Be diverted for 18 months on a hidden planet called New Caprica
Be diverted back to an Algae planet. There, the chosen one is supposed to be in the activated temple, but it doesn’t seem to happen. However, see a symbol that tells you to go in the direction of the Ionian supernova remnant.
Along the way, refuel at a planet where Starbuck is taken in an unknown fashion.
Reach the Ionian nebula. Suffer a power failure. Awaken the final five, just slightly. Return a Starbuck, in a brand new viper. Starbuck has compulsions that point her towards Earth. She finds it but doesn’t see it. Raiders encountered freshly awakened final five, and break off, triggering Cylon internal conflict.
Cylons have civil war, near Earth.
Have the final five realize the viper is special. The viper has a locater pointing at the 13th colony.
On the 13th colony, give the final five more memories, but learn no new clues for true Earth.

This journey does not have to be a straight line, but I hope we see a reason why this is the journey that makes sense. Something to explain why not just get coordinates. A reason why this journey brings about other events like the alliance with the Cylons, or their war. Events either to repeat the cycle, or to break it.