The good, the bad, the horrible

Readers of this blog won’t have to guess my disappointment with the 2nd half of the finale. And yes, I will tear apart how silly, and pointless the way Moore wanted to end it was.

But first, there were some good parts. The space battle fans were looking for. They last Betrayal by boomer and her flashback. And for one moment, I was impressed that they were able to completely surprise me by making it look like they would have a negotiated settlement with Cavil. That would have been bold TV, for it is actually how many wars end. But Tory’s secret made it not to happen, and Tyrol’s emotions once more muck everything up. They didn’t show it, but this could have been made more complex if he could have restored some memories of his happy life with Tory when they were shacked up and engaged, overwhelmed by the murder. But he is forgiven again.

I felt the Colony should have been, as Simon said, vastly superior militarily. They did much better against it than you would think, and the few nukes in that raptor should not have been able to do that much damage. However, fortunately the singularity, in spite of all our speculations, played no part in the result. Cavil’s suicide was surprising but quickly cast aside in the story. His other copies may or may not have died if the colony was truly destroyed. Since it had many base ships which could jump away, one should presume many of them survived.

The song did turn out to be coordinates for real Earth, as many expected. And of course, this is where the show hurt itself, undid so much of the good it had done to this point.

Now, of course, readers will know I am particularly bothered by it being set in the past. Moore said long ago he knew man evolved on Earth, and he kept that — sort of. But first I’ll start with the criticisms that have nothing to do with when they set the story, for literally up to the last 2 minutes they could have fixed the story so easily by zooming to a broken Statue of Liberty on the beach. And that is the great shame, for there was so little story need to ruin everything. It’s often been written by fans that they don’t care about the science, that the writers will have a story to tell, and if the science has to bend to tell a good story, they can. But they could have told 99% of the story they wanted without screwing up the science very much. The great shame is they took what could have been greatness and dashed it on the rocks for one little hook.

Leaving out the science…

I simply could never find it credible that they would fly their fleet into the sun. (Nor, for that matter, did it make sense that Sam should die to do so, because he was certainly not a lost cause at that point, and in fact one imagines the remaining 4 might have knowledge together to help him. Or the 5 if Galen had not been so rash.) A computer could easily have flown the fleet into the sun. (Though I did smile at the re-use of the original music at this point. I didn’t like a lot from the old show but I did like that theme.)

Yes, they wanted a new start, a clean slate. But throw their hospitals into the sun? Most of their planes? It boggled my mind. Those who had any health problems would not be so ready to destroy their technology. Yes, the virgin Earth is full of game and fruit, and life there could be idyllic — with medicine — but this was brushed over completely. There should have at least been factions opposed. And those factions would have won, of course, because they would soon have been militarily dominant.

Laura did see the promised land. That doesn’t bother me, the cycle was broken, at least for a while.

Minor issue — Adama says they came a million light years. There is no other galaxy a million light years from Earth. . We will presume he’s just using it as a big number, though. (In fact, on further reflection, this must be the case as they are able to jump Raptors back to collect the fleet. So they are actually quite close to the other scenes of the show.)

I was surprised to see that Baltar knew that Six had nefarious “Employers.” This makes him way more evil than he ever ways shown to be at the start. I had always presumed he was duped, just letting a hot, bright assistant get more access than she should, not assisting a known spy in exchange for sex. This somehow hurt his redemption in my eyes.

And Kara’s resolution just didn’t work for me. Fine, she’s been an angel ever since she crossed into the maelstrom. That whole plot seems to provide so little now. She had physical form, her DNA could be tested, but “poof” she disappears when she feels her task is done.

And why all the fakeouts about sadness and death? Laura dies, as everybody expected for 3 years. Sam dies, to no real purpose. Boomer dies, because Athena is vindictive and forgets she has valuable intel. Starbuck doesn’t die, not really. Tory dies — who cares? And yes, Galactica dies, but because they drive her into the Sun.

The horrible, horrible science

Now some will say, all of this can be accepted because it’s the sudden will of God. That there would be humans, DNA compatible humans from another galaxy is so impossible it could only happen by divine intervention. Which I find highly unsatisfactory in a show of this type. Once you start solving your problems with sudden divine intervention, literally God in the Machine in this case, you make your story much less meaningful. Everything is as it is not because of the characters and their strengths and their story, but because God set it up.

God also had to do something rather un-godlike. If the colonials are the same species as our ancestors, then the diseases of Earth would have wiped out the colonials pretty quickly, and the diseases of the colonials would have done serious horror to the Africans too. The colonials came with dogs, cats and other animals, and God must have made them be exactly the same as the dogs and cats of Earth, who of course have been here for many millions of years. And their diseases too. God has to do a lot to make this story work. And God can indeed do anything. But I’ve already read that book, and didn’t much care for it.

Strangely, though it is 150,000 years ago, Adama plans to spread people all over the place. This actually makes little sense, and doesn’t match the pattern of human migration. Humans spread out from Africa in several waves, but only the last one (about 80,000 years ago) stuck. The expeditions Adama sent died off, leaving nothing. No faction decided to build cities or technology. In fact, all the people pretty quickly collapsed to primitive states, without technology and without writing, which didn’t come to us until quite recently.

It would have made more sense if they had timed this to the “Great leap forward” when human culture suddenly accelerated, which was 50,000 years ago. Once you accept God doing all this magic stuff to make this plot work, at least that could have had some consistency with history. But instead, the colonials quickly came to the life of our ancestors, nasty, brutish and short, with a lifespan of 30. No happy ending there.

New York

All of this plot could have been saved if in a final pan, they had come to a modern ruined artifact, changing the date — and of course removing that final scene of the Angels in New York. Of course a Statue of Liberty would have been very cute, but anything would have done.

Suddenly all of it can make sense. No need for god to be creating DNA miracles — of course they are the same species. They are just the remnants of humanity on a war-destroyed planet, reduced to primitive life. Perhaps even by choice, just like the colonials. Write that story and you could have told this very same episode without bogus science. You just could not have put the Angels in New York to make a few snide comments and melodramatic warnings about the dangers of robots.

Was that short scene worth it? Not at all. Because the truth is, a logically consistent, realistic ending would have done far more for the show’s message. Made it far more respected and remembered. By doing it well, the whole show’s overall message about the dangers of robotics would have been far stronger, far more lasting. It would have been saying, “We just told you a story of how misuse of AI did bring this world to ruin” rather than “This story of danger comes from a distant and fantastical past which makes no sense, and is not really our past.”

What a great waste. While I do crave more realism and less mumbo-jumbo, even those who don’t have that taste can realize that the fault here is not simply a lack of attention to science. It’s a lack of attention to meaning. What could have been one of the greatest SF shows of all time, with a lasting message, cuts off its own legs in the last 3 minutes for highly unimportant reasons. I suspect that for years to come, people will say BSG was “Great, except for the stupid ending.”

And if Starbuck was going to be an angel who can just vanish, could they not have let her have a scene in New York with Baltar and Six? Yes, the Ron Moore cameo was cute. The mitochondrial Eve story, which is where they got the 150,000 years from, is widely misunderstood. This woman is not “Eve” like in the Bible, she is just the most recent of a million common ancestors we all have. They mucked it up just for that?

Loose ends

  • Baltar’s women and their weapons
  • The reason for Starbuck’s long strange fate and journey, if she’s really a non-corporeal being of sorts.
  • Just who is this God and why does he work in these strange and mysterious ways? Why does he not like being called God by his minions? Who are they anyway, and where did they come from? Is this just some strange new theology thrown in at end without explanation, to roughly parallel our notions of angels?
  • Why did the 12 tribes take their flags from the sky of the 13th colony?
  • Why did D’Anna say “You were right” to Baltar?
  • What was the Ionian nebula about? Why the strange power shutdown? Why did Roslin faint? How were the Cylons waiting?
  • Who wrote All along the Watchtower? (Looks like it’s God.)

Broken promises

No time travel? That opera house scene was indeed a vision of the future, very concrete. It goes beyond simply being made to happen by the beings who planted it, or so it seems. Ditto some other prophecies like that of the First Hybrid.

Outstanding finale. I'm

Outstanding finale. I'm very, very satisfied.

Occam's Razor applies exactly here as it has been stated from the very beginning of the series, and the fanbois are going to hate it because they didn't get all the questioned answered the way they wanted it in a complicated shopping list with every item available to be checked off.

It's just like Star Wars between TESB and ROTJ. The fanbois came up with all these elaborate explanations of who Luke's father REALLY was. Who Darth Vader REALLY was. Who "the other" really was, simply because they couldn't accept the truth that was given to them. And people wonder why SF fans are often perceived as so irritating.

Plus, it'll also piss-off the militant atheists across the board, not just in SF.

So it's all GOoD.

Out-frakking-standing.

What is this story you loved so much?

My point is not to say the writers can’t tell the story they want, though I want it to make sense. The question I ask is, what is this story you loved so much that could not have been told pretty much the same, with a tiny bit more care and consulting with an advisor on human history.

"consulting with an advisor

"consulting with an advisor on human history."

Why? The doctor made it clear their DNA was the same as ours. Baltar's dialogue made it perfectly clear that the whole thing was due to divine intervention. Head 6 has stated from the beginning it's all part of God's plan. When you get down to it, there's no real conflict between the idea of evolution being part of God's Plan. A VERY long range plan. As Moore has stated, now you know the ending, you can go back and watch the series with a new view on everything.

IMLHO, the real conflict / debate is between those that can accept the existence of God, and those that can't.

Fill in the blanks....

Keep in mind that flags from the original colonies were 'our' constellations. There is nothing in this story to say that Kobol (or a previous world, or two or three) wasn't populated by beings from our Earth, 200,000 years ago. These rough symbols could survive a few cycles the same way AATWT did. The DNA wouldn't have diverged that much in a few thousand years, and that history would have been lost in their antiquity. Furthermore, that completes yet another full circle in the mythos of this show.

Making it up as I go though.

I agree that a distant future ending would have made more sense, I was someone challenged by and happy with this outcome. The nerd in me wants to understand and 'get' it, but the other side really enjoyed the feeling of completion. And maybe this is just me, but doesn't the return to total simplicity strike a chord with a small under current in the modern world. Way tuned in, IMHO.

Thanks for a great blog, Brad!

Toxicity

Technology and people can become a bit toxic. You get that whether you're living in a globalised world with sueprcomputers or stone axes in some villiage. If it's not the neighbour it's some random asshole on the internet and, don't forget, we can be that neighbour and random asshole to someone else.

Wherever you go, there you are.

The real conflict ?

Might be between those who accept bad writing and those that can't

Here is a story you'll like

Stuff happened to some people.

God did it all.

Nice!

Now that would have saved a lot of time, especially for that abysmal ending...

:)

I am so lost and upset!

You hung in there for Battlestar Galactica, right? Loved the show until this season, right? Was waiting for some really cool things to be resolved since January, right? Had to tolerate the last 6 - 8 episodes where nothing really happened and you kept thinking, next week... Right?

Then came the finale where they had 2 hours wrap up more questions than I have the patience to repeat here and you had to see Tighe in a strip bar saying "Yeaaaaahhh!!" 90 times along with other flashbacks that you could give a shit about (liek Roslyn sleeping with an ex-student), right?

Is Moore a Mormon (no pun intended) that he "scattered" the Galacticans over the 5 continents? Seriously...
So I want to know a few things (and a lot more, but let's start here):

1) Why is Kara "the harbinger of death. You should not follow her. End of the line"
2) How did her body and ship end up on "the other Earth" after blowing up in the nebula
3) What were the happy head 6 and head Baltar anyway? 4) Why would Cavil make a deal for resurrection (when he had that before he started the war?)
5) Why would he kill himself?
6) What about "all this has happened before and it will all happen again?"
7) I saw Roslynn die in the BG sick bay at least a few times. What happened to that forshadowing?
8) How did the 13 colonies (or was it 12) have the constellations for our Earth if they never were at our Earth?
9) Were the Greek Gods just a really amazing coincidence?
10) Does anyone remember 6 snapping the baby's neck 1st episode?
okay forget that last question-- not so important, but it still bugs me and I can't make nice-nice with the character after that (Sort of like how ya can't forgive Adikan at the end of Star Wars ROTJ and make all nice-nice with him either.

I have a few dozen more. What a letdown. God, I hate to be so damn negative about it. Maybe I need to see it again, but I am not so sure I want to. I think they just doomed the series to be forgotton in the lore of TV-dom. I suspect no one will give a crap about it in 10 years because of this last [half] season.

A few possible dumb answers:
1) Clearly the BS crew all died off and evolution continued as it would have for 150,000 years and they made no difference, so she really WAS the harbinger of death. Had they arrive 4000 or 5000 years ago and influenced pre-Greco/Roman culture that would have been different. So they went all over the planet and just died. After all, they took NONE of their technology, medicine or creature comforts. And they took none of their pets either (since cats and dogs have only been domesticated for a few thousand years). And I guess no one in the fleet had ANY problem with that.
2) I have no answer. It was all bullshit. Beats me...
3) See #2
4) See #2
5) See #2
6) See #2
7) See #2
8) See #2
9) See #2

Am I missing something? Did I not get it? Holy shit am I pissed off.

You are so lost and upset BSG finale

You are very justified in all of your comments and I feel your pain. You did not miss anything and you are correct to be pissed off. There are no hidden deeper meanings that you can't see--- just poor writing period!! There were literally NO payoffs in the series finale and almost none in the final 10 episodes. No payoffs = a rip-off and fraud by Ronald D. Moore (RDM).

Overall analysis: the first half was equally as horrid as the final half. Many people have said that they enjoyed the first half more than the second. If you enjoy 100 drinks of alcohol consumed by Tai, Ellen, Adama, Roslyn & boy toy, Kara, Lee & Lee's brother in 45 minutes, mundane strip locales, nonsense back stories that were out of place (should if all been told in season 1 or 2)--we already cared about them and knew enough about their back stories.

Also, the sets were a total betrayal. In all prior Caprica scenes the appearance of the buildings and room interiors were at least futuristic and non-earth looking. Did RDM run out of money for sets? The location shown where Kara lived with Lee's brother could be my apartment which is not how Caprica looked in prior seasons.

All of your questions above were never answered and the plots (character development is important but plot needs to be complete) were left hanging in my opinion. The following plot lines were never paid off:

1. HERA--- she ended up being nothing but a cute little girl. The mitochondrial eve crap is just that. She sort of navigates them to their final home. Her importance as the future of both races was BS.
2. STARBUCK (KARA THRACE) ---- was she an Angel or was she a harbinger of death? She ended up being a drunken sloppy joke that disappeared. Was RDM trying to show us how she developed from an angry little girl into a super fabulous angel chick?
3. THE BALCONY THEATRE DREAM--- another letdown. Cheated with the hoaky looking galactica bridge scene, by the way where was D’eanna as one of the final 5/6? They used that dream sequence 50 times to foreshadow something important happening there and nothing ever did.
4. CAPRICA SIX AND BALTAR--- you asked what they ended up being? In my opinion, nothing more than mischievous meddlers of time and space sort of like “Q” from the Star Trek franchise (maybe that’s where RDM ripped it from). Baltar should have gone out in a pool of blood or have been exiled for his past deeds and the two of them ending up prattling around in a future world (our current earth) was ludicrous at best. Caprica 6 should have been beheaded and her body used a spare parts for the useful remaining cylons. Justice for all a recycling theme covered in one shot.
5. THE BS ABOUT ABANDONING TECHNOLOGY TO TRY TO BREAK THE CYCLE OF THE PAST (SO HISTORY WOULD NOT REPEAT AGAIN)--- more crap. This show was never about technology, although the theme about humans creating the Cylons and the Cylons (machines) turning the tables was integral. If they were going to stay on their new planet and abandon all technology then THEY WOULD HAVE TO DESTROY ALL OF THE CYLONS OR NOT LET THEM ON THE PLANET BECAUSE CYLONS ARE TECHNOLOGY!!!!@!!!!! How about a disclaimer at least that says we are abandoning our technology but will keep a few 1000 cylons with us…….
6. CAVIL QUESTIONS--- more bad writing. Boomer literally stealing back Hera was like taking candy from a baby. Too easy. Cavil surrendering and killing himself were stupid attempts to tie up his character. Cavil could have taken the final five off of the bridge by force and why would he surrender now when this was not in his nature?
7. ELLEN TIGH --- so what and so what?? She was totally unnecessary for the last 10 episodes. It looked like she was pivotal but she digressed to nothing but what she originally was: a jealous, power hungry slut period!! Her role in the 1983 movie “Chained Heat” was a bit part but had more impact than her BSG role ended up having.
The other plots and characters not tied up:
• Chief killing Tory the way he did was completely uncreative. He should have shoved her out of an airlock. Letting Tory get away with killing Callie would have been preferred than the way it was tied up on the finale.
• All of the prophecies and foreshadowing came to a big ZERO. The 13, the 12, the final 5 or the final 6 etc. They ended up being nonsense at best.

Anyway, I could go on and on and I am going to abandon my technology (and sign off from this email). I am going to try to move on and will see RDM at a scifi convention in early summer and will surely give him a piece of my mind (nicely).

Gary

My interpretations (maybe an answer for you)

1.) Did you miss the first half of season 4?

First Hybrid:

"Kara Thrace will lead the human race to its end."

She led humanity to its end. Hera is the only mitochondrial common ancestor of all humans alive in the present day. Hybrids. Neither human or cylon. But more on that later. "Humanity" in the form of William Adama et al. is over.

"She is the herald of the apocalypse. The harbinger of death."

She brought on the apocalypse of Cylons. As a direct result of her actions aboard the Demetrius, the Hub was destroyed. Dooming millions of Cylons to one day die. But some of them were grateful, hell Natalie even praised her. She brought them the death they needed to be whole, as Leoben said.

"They must not follow her."

That is the opinion of the Hybrid, not prophecy. This was the hybrid who was willing to jump away to avoid being controlled by the Final Five, so he seems to have liked to buck the trend.

2.) There are many possibilities to that.

For example:
A group of survivors from a previous cycle moved the remains from the planet to Earth, and are capable of manipulating the Final Five at will. They also copied Kara's memories with an advanced device, perhaps disguised as the Aurora statue, and cloned her (which, in the scheme of things, isn't that hard to do).

There, science fiction explanation. Another example would be that God did it. Or maybe something else happened.

"Take your pick."

It doesn't change what the characters went through, the battles they fought, all of it the real things the show has always been about. Humanity, our nature, our desire to change, etc.

3.) For example:

A group of nanobots that work together as a swarm, Cylons from a bygone era. The made the Earth here habitable, with compatible dogs, humans, cats, and plants. The bots manipulated Kara, Baltar and Six. It infected Six and Baltar, communicated and manipulated both of them as needed, until they got what they wanted. Who knows what it/they wanted, though one explanation could be to get a pure breed of mechanical Cylons away from the flesh variety for a long enough period of time to actually explore the entire Galaxy. The "answer" could be anything. But, as with the last one:

"Take your pick."

4.) Cavil lost the war. He was hoping at that point to get back to what he had lost. From his stand point he was a Von Neumann machine who had lost its ability to replicate. He had to do anything to get that back.

5.) He realized this all was pointless. Up until when Baltar talked to him, he probably thought himself to be the most powerful thing in the Galaxy. After all, he controlled the entire Cylon machine didn't he? He killed the model he was jealous of, indirectly controlled the other 6 models, and even captured his creators just to play games with him. But what happens? An Eight falls in love, defects and has a baby, a Three starts seeking out memories that Cavil had blocked, ignoring his control, and even worse she discovers the five. Even to someone like Cavil, it was obvious that something was doing this, something greater than him. Be it a more complex set of Math, or a God or Gods, it didn't matter, Cavil had no control over the situation, and really, he had had no control to begin with. I can see where his mind went after that. He knew he could be killed or live to see the "plan" come to fruition, a plan he felt he had no part in or control over. But he had the power to kill himself, so he did.

6.) Kobol to Earth to the Twelve Colonies to our Earth. Man makes machine, man abuses machine, machine tries to kill man, machine becomes man, and it repeats. The bet that Head Six and Baltar make after all: "But the question is, does all of this have to happen again?"

7.) She knew she going to die. She believed in the prophecy. Sickbay is where she believed she would die, before reaching Earth. She was coping with her own death. Maybe Elosha was an angel sent to comfort the leader, maybe it was her head, but her death in sickbay was shown to prepare Laura for the end, not to describe how it would happen. Also, we were wrong about the prophecy. She was dying of a wasting disease, and she led them to Earth that part was correct. She saw the Human and Cylon promised land, but she did not see her own.

She wanted Home, she wanted that Cabin and Adama and that wedding ring.

Like she told Billy in the miniseries, "I wish I could say [the cancer] was the least of my worries. But the world is coming to an end, and all I can think about is that I have cancer and I'm probably going to die." She played her part, but she didn't get home that she wanted, she didn't get the dream.

8.) I've heard the explanation that the stars around the real earth looked the same as or similar to the stars around our Earth, but with a 150,000 year difference. It's possible that the real Earth and our Earth and all the stars moved over time so that what the Colonials first saw above Kobol, what the Five saw when they left their Earth, and what we see when we look up, look "close enough" to be mistaken for the the same. Unlikely, but possible. Go to nanobots or God if you need to.

9.) You mean a group of Gods representing all the phenomena in our world? A god for the Moon, for the Sun, for Fertility and the Ocean?

A group of humans trying to figure out the world regularly makes a Pantheon of Gods to categorize and explain the world. Assuming the worlds of Kobol and our Earth have the same set of phenomena, that Pantheon will always end up looking pretty similar.

10.) She did it as a mercy gesture. That baby might have survived the initial bombs, but succumbed to radiation without its mother or father. Caprica, even all that time ago had feelings. Even though he would be dead in a matter of weeks, she still helped Julius find his peace. It wasn't right what she did, but it wasn't the worst wrong possible either.

Galactica didn't wrap the show up with a nice little bow for the audience, but it did leave the show open enough to have naturalistic science fiction explain everything. But it could also be explained by theology, or something else entirely. What it cared about was getting from point A to B, and to have the people live or die throughout. You fill in the blanks if you want to. I know I do, and it's rewarding to come up with my own theory and know that now it can neither be proven or disproven. That's better than Stargate taking away the mystique of the Ancients in Season 7, or have the Borg be reduced to confused robots in Star Trek, or have Episode One explain that midichlorians somehow make the Jedi capable of knowing the future.

We'll never know why Starbuck vanished, but we can always think we know why.

PS: Hera is the mother's mother's mother's mother of all the humans alive today. Who knows what mitochondria the Colonials or our Earth's evolved humans had? It doesn't matter. Hera overruled all of that. Maybe something in mitochondria in the humans living on our Earth before Galactica would have caused them to be wiped out. Perhaps the violence the humans harbored towards their robotic creations was caused by the DNA in the mitochondria of Colonial humans, and that will allow the cycle to break. Your explanation can make as much or as little sense as you want it to or be as rational or theological as you want it to be.

Take your pick.

The end was was just too

The end was was just too much and nothing anyone could care about. No disrespect, but that's why I just skimmed through your post. Beyond a certain point people blow a fuse. There's too much to process and it doesn't mean anything anyway.

Nothing anyone could care about?

Nothing anyone could care about? I cared about it. I thought it was brilliant, and I'm somebody. The cast and crew have effusively praised the finale, so it's not just Ron Moore.

Most of those questions were answered before the Finale anyways, so I don't see how it was overloading at all, 1. we knew Kara Thrace's destiny, 7. they made a point of talking about "Home" in "Islanded of a Stream of Stars", so we know Roslin's actual wish (the cabin) was what she wanted, and her "promised land". 2. and 3. are not questions ever to be answered, so you don't focus on them on the finale. 6. was the entire theme of the show, going all the way back to "Flesh and Bone" in season 1, supported by "Kobol's Last Gleaming", "Exodus", and "Revelations". 10. is from the miniseries. 9. Is something to think about after the show ends. 8. is an oversight, but hardly the point of focus of the story, as any explanation would have made the story more cumbersome. So only 4 and 5 are actual relevant to the finale.

I did blow a fuse about the characters when I fist watched it. So I watched it again. And I found the purpose I wanted. I would really recommend watching the finale again, you might appreciate it more with some time.

Paid stars often praise

Paid stars often praise shows they don't like because they're actors and are paid to say it. People believe it because they're convincing enough and they do it because if they didn't they'd never work again. I'm not saying this is routine or everyone sells out like that but it happens.

The story became so bad at the end that hammy and confused acting started becoming obvious. Hearing the actress who played "Tory" go on about the script as if it gave her role some great meaning or stretched her acting talents was laughable. Then we're got others going on about how the script made them cry or how it worked out better than it looked on the page.

This is what some people call "The Con". I know what I think of it and I quit listening to RD ages ago. Other people are welcome to think different or backwards rationalise their failed investment but I moved on ages ago. Brad's topics and people's comment has given me more than the show itself since then.

Nothing anyone could care about? REPLY

William, you are definately passionate & thoughtful about your liking of the finale.I watched it twice because I was in a state of shock of a what a clusterf!!K the finale ended up being after my first viewing. I watched it 2 hours later again to see if I had missed anything redeemeing and to go deeper in what RDM may have had in mind for the ending. Bottom line to all of your points: PAYOFF OR RIPOFF?

1. We knew Kara Thrace's destiny,NO PAYOFF!!! She helped guide them to their key destinations and finally to their new home world. Her mortal body is later found dead and she is replaced by a new “angel-like” Kara who just disappears—SO WHAT?? Where is the payoff to her plotlines? There is none. If she is an Angel, then who does she report to? Which gods? Is Baltar & Caprica Six her angel superiors? In early BSG episodes she is full of faith a certainly has a destiny to fulfill--- getting the arrow, translating the drawing on her wall of the black hole thing to a particular star system that lead them to Kobol, figuring out the song notes & on an on. There was no continuity between her destiny and potential to do something great at the end and she went out like a whimper with a smile on her face.

It does not matter how many times you watch this finale and especially the last 8 episodes, there are no payoffs, no great meanings, just RDM betrayal, discontinuities in plots and location background.

Here are THE Real Meanings to the series of crappy plotlines in finale:

1. Adama, Tigh & Ellen drinking shot after shot of booze in the strip joint twice: MY GUESS OF RDM's hidden/real MEANINGS:
a. To show how normal and justified their subsequent alcoholism was when then eventually they were assigned to the Gallactica. Nothing about life changing decisions. RDM either is very anti-drinking or wants to show how sloppy and disgusting that drunks can get or look. Or, he wanted to excuse all of the shipboard boozing as not an aberration but a normal way of life that was already happening prior to the cylon attack and therefore the way that they handled their stress was normal and that drinking to excess-incessantly was surely not a real crutch but just a fun pastime….The Adama vomiting scene was either a tool to get the 13 year old demographics or RDM showing what he thought about the viewers. I checked on several Mormom BSG blog sites (yes these really do exist!!!) to see if there was some deeper meanings that I missed but the Mormons &(90%) thought that this spiritualism was idiotic blabbery at best.

2. Dinner party at Lee’s brother & Kara’s apartment: MY GUESS OF RDM’s hidden/real MEANINGS:
a. More sloppy drunkploitive hard drinking = a way to avoid character development. Theory on the writing: RDM must have been dead drunk when wrote these scenes. Bottle (bottom) line is that this was pure filler and an excuse to either fill 20 minutes of network time or set the stage for the CAPRICA prequel series which may take place entirely in a combo Irish Pub/Vomitorium.

3. Laura Roslin cougar blind date with her former student: More boozing cavorting with no connection to relevant plotlines or future Laura scenes. We have enough scenes already of her past life and did not need any more background for comparison. This can only be a sneaky way to introduce us to her friends and soon to be dead family for the Caprica prequel which is another betrayal for BSG hard core fans.

THE MOST LOGICAL WAY TO FOLLOW UP THE PITIFUL FIRST 45 MINUTES WOULD HAVE BEEN THE FOLLOWING: Battlestar Gallactica was really a metaphor for a large Drunk tank!! And that all of the humans on the gallactica were really residents in a drunk tank and the cylons were either bartenders or galactic prohibitionists or GMEN who came into each of their towns to destroy their stills, brewaries, liquor stores & bars. Adama leads a breakout from the drunk tank and leads his fellow lushes on adventures to find a new world that will provide them with all of the booze they can consume while keeping one step ahead of the cylon/ prohibitionists who will stop at nothing to keep the drunks from drinking. They finally convert the remaining cylons to the booze side and send the remaining cylon prohibitionists where Anders (one of the final 5?) is their leader and forced to lie in a tank of tequilla and babble in a DT way towards to a gruesome death in the sun. Then Chief builds a low tech still for each drinking region in the new world so that by diversifying their drinking cultures there will be less chance for booze boredom syndrome. Baltar and Caprica 6 end up being elected co-chairs of the Alcohol and beverage commission (ABC) and spend the next 150,000 years traveling from one drinking region to another to insure the preservation of the booze civilization. Little Hera ended up being “boxed” into storage into a 5 foot jar of grain alcohol so she could be fermented for all time and one day be used to brew “Eve” single malt scotch……………

Just a little bitter = Gary.

William, I think you're

William,

I think you're spot on with your answers to 1-7, but not 8-10.

8) Constellations of old Earth matching new Earth/Tomb of Athena/Flag of the 12 colonies - this is probably an oversight by the creators, but one way to rationalise it would be that the old and new earth systems are close enough that they see some of the same constellations. This is maybe not a great leap since we keep seeing that Jupiter-like planet pop up throughout season 4 (the site of the cylon civil war, and when Boomer and Hera stopover), and the season 3 ending shows the Ionian nebula to be in the same part of the galaxy as new Earth. The part about the flags of the 12 colonies is perfectly rational - if the 12 colonies had legend and scripture of the 13th's exodus to a colony called Earth, this had to have come from somewhere. Someone (probably the Lord of Kobol Athena) visited the 13th colony and came back to Kobol to build the hologram and pass on the symbols before the Great Exodus of the remaining 12 tribes.

9) Greek Gods existing before we invented them - RDM explains this as something that trickles down through the collective unconscious. Invented on Kobol and re-invented on Earth.

10) Caprica Six killing the baby in the miniseries - If you watch this scene, she looks like a child tearing off the wings of a fly. She doesn't understand humans in this early phase of living among them. Caprica is an emotional child at this point, but that child grows up.

Where did "All Along the Watchtower" come from ?

If it was known 150,000 years in the past by Cylons ? There is only one explanation that makes sense.

Jimi Hendrix is God.

But hey, we knew that already...

Brad, I'm sad to say I agree

Brad,
I'm sad to say I agree with pretty much everything you've written in the post. I'm conflicted, because from story perspective I think it was a decent ending. Like you, though, I wanted something more than just a story.

Two minor inconsequential notes:
Baltar always knew that Six had "employers"; he just allowed himself to believe the lie that they were a software firm that wanted inside information to win a government contract.

Prophecies and premonitions aren't time travel. I can't really tell just what the point of the whole Opera House vision actually way, but it's not time travel. That, and the absence of "aliens" are at least two promises kept.

I am so disappointed that instead of "the truth," we've given a literal deus ex machina, and a "god of the gaps" at that. Grr.

Irony of the old Centurions

Did anyone see the irony and/or symmetry to Cavil using the old model centurions? Just as in the mini series the colonials used the older Vipers to evade the Cylons so too did Cavil turn to the older Centurions who were probably easier to control than the current models. While it may not be for the same reasons, the symmetry struck me.

Still watching the ep, but I thought it was interesting enough to note.

Very good so far. I've heard some gripes about the answers to our questions, but if the episode is good (and its damn good) than I can look past some things. A real analysis will follow in the morn.

If You Want the Truth, Then Tune In Next Time For ...

For everyone who hoped against hope for the ending to be neat and consistent, and maybe have some jaw-dropping revelations, my condolences. The list of unresolved issues and unanswered questions is still pretty long. Many things happened just for expediency. And of course, you can tune into "Battlestar Galactica, The Plan" for answers this fall.

I, for one, would have been satisfied with the colonials entering nascent Greek society and bringing their religious beliefs and signs of the Zodiac with them. It wouldn't have been a great life, but they wouldn't have been living like savages either. And what happened to the Cylons who flew off in their Basestar? And all the Cylons who occupied the Twelve Colonies? And the thousands, perhaps millions of Colonials living under Cylon rule? (we know many survived.) Well, there certainly is plenty of material for spinoffs and movies.

This was good storytelling, the problem is, those of us not focused on the science and details had a hard time following the story. The people actually focusing on the details are no doubt disappointed by the loose ends, inconsistencies, etc. But for those people in the middle, this was a pretty darn good ending. And for a cable TV series, it was as good in quality as the best science fiction I have seen on the big screen.

Ending

Hi there, this is my first post here. I agree with Brad, slight modifications in the plot could have made it more "true" to science and history without really sacrificing the mythological and meaningful parts of the story.

I think the following alternate storyline is conceivable. Forgive me if most of these ideas have been presented, but here's my brief summary. It's kind of a way to satisfy those of us who have trouble accepting the fact that modern humans are presented as descendants of beings from outer space.

- the story could have taken place with humans originating on our Earth, and populating Kobol later on. (either because of war, environmental breakdown, or just technology permitting it at some point).

- the 13th tribe of cylons populated a planet that was not our Earth, but they called it earth, because in the collective history of man (and cylon) on Kobol, the fingerprints of our Earth as the birthplace of mankind still remained, even if the mythology had gotten convoluted. The 13th tribe called their planet "earth" because they saw themselves as the true descendants of man.

- The final five return to the colonies, as they do in the story as told. These 5 geniuses possess knowledge of the location of both the nuked cylon earth, and our Earth - because in fact, our Earth is really the birthplace of mankind and information on it did exist in the records of man on Kobol, it was just broken up and jumbled up over time, and had to be reconstructed from incomplete information. With this knowledge, they are able to implant the traces of that information in Hera (via Athena) and Starbuck.

- The return to our Earth is accomplished in a way not unlike it is presented in the finale. It's just that it is future earth; remnants of the origin of man are found there, but humans are no longer there, and the planet is habitable (if there was a nuclear war, it was so many years ago that the radiation has already decayed; if there was environmental breakdown, the absence of man for so long has enabled the earth to regenerate itself, etc.) The show could even end on the idyllic note of man at peace with nature, as it ended on the program, leaving off the fast-forward to modern day New York. New scrolls could be written that tell the story of man and cylon, and the wars and the cycle. The ending could be hopeful in the sense that the scrolls tell a story of destruction and redemption, but still leave the future open-ended.

Maybe there is some inconsistency in my facts here, with respect to the timelines of the show, but I think it's OK.

I think the vanishing Starbuck is OK, even the Baltar and Caprica 6 angels are OK. As a metaphor, I can accept all that. Just modern humans descending from people from outer space, and the requirement of so much divine intervention to explain plot events - I have trouble with those.

Religion, Philosophy, Literature

I was very, very satisfied by the finale. I think that the sticking points for those who, like Brad, are disappointed is that the show isn't merely about science: it's perhaps even more so about religion and philosophy, areas in which neat, pat, resolved solutions may not readily be available (and indeed may even be undesirable); as Madeleine l'Engle once famously said, "I may at times contradict myself, but I will mean both things." This analysis blog has done a fine job looking at purely rational/logical and obviously also scientific issues--but perhaps has glossed over the philosophical and religious issues that make the show worthy of literary analysis. To my mind, the complexities and apparent contradictions are not "problems" but philosophical and literary points that need ongoing conversation and dialog to be worked out and developed, likely long after the show has aired. I think the writers worked left things vague or open quite intentionally. It's not unlike the Brechtian "alienation effect," really. Neat ends are fine in embroidery and sewing, but in art I think it's way more satisfying to be left with so much to mull over and think about and talk to other people about.

Besides, there is "The Plan" coming out this fall as well as "Caprica," and many of these issues will undoubtedly be integrated into those shows as well.

I guarantee that THIS ending

I guarantee that THIS ending of BSG will be discussed years from know. The "scientific" ending would not.

Good point

A controversial ending can be the difference between a good show and a legendary one.

Teach the controversy

I will do a special blog post on it, but the reason this ending is so disappointing is it is not any ordinary bad science, like spaceships making whooshing noises. The Ark story is the most pernicious anti-scientific idea in modern society. It is fine to have in a religious story, but has no place in non-religious SF. And so BSG shifted with its ending from SF to religious fiction, and what a huge and negative shift that is (other than for those seeking religious fiction.)

So the ending will be controversial, but in the way that creationism/ID vs. science is controversial. It’s not a good controversy.

Let it go, Brad

This was not an 'Ark' story at all. They simply added themselves to the planet, they did not 'seed' it or bring two of every animal.

There are many reasons to be disappointed in this finale, Brad. This is not one of them. The controversy I was referring to was not religious vs. scientific, it was an ending that divided the audience. I was referring to shows like St. Elsewhere, Newhart, Sopranos, and to a lesser extent Dallas (which wasn't an ending that was controversial). A finale that leaves fans debating for years is what can sometimes make a show legendary.

Ron pulled a stroke with BSG

Ron pulled a stroke with BSG and any controversy is just milking attention. It's a fact of marketing that the top competitors go at each other not to drive the benefits of competition down to the customer but to get more of people's attention span and lock out the newcomers. Pimping themselves at the UN, and Olomos and NcDonnell working the studios is just more of the same old game. BSG pretended to be something new but when you take a closer look it's the same old crap with new paint.

Yeah, I know a few people not familiar with Zen will squeal at the shiny but in 20-30 years time your children will be cringing at it as another new messiah comes along. Ron's cameo at the end and the "God" bit pretty much scream in your face that he's been jerking your chain and people don't see it, the cycle of misery, and breaking the cycle doesn't begin out there but in your head. If you "salvation" you won't find it in make believe science or daytime soap, narrative roadcrashes, and blowing the budget in the last five minutes.

Overall, disappointed.

I was disappointed, but not because of the science. I could care less about the science. But I don't like the ambiguous, religious resolution, which story-wise just did not work. Many of my questions were outright unresolved. Kara just disappears? Hello? And what was that at the end? It's NOT god? Or is it? What I liked about DS9 was that the gods were not really gods, but wormhole aliens. I wanted SOME kind of explanation for who or what the god was, even if it didn't make scientific sense. An unexplained mystical religious-based god is simply unsatisfying, especially given that the audience was lead to believe it could be something more. I wouldn't mind a god on some level, but not as the answer to everything. This ending screams of a sequel and frankly, I hope we get it, ala Riverworld, where RDM decides his ending wasn't up to snuff and comes back for a little more. Heck, maybe the Plan is just that. I hope so.

What's worse about this disappointment is that the first half of the episode was one of the best episodes of the series. The explanation for the Opera House was jaw dropping, and more satisfying than I could have ever imagined. But how could they let Helo live? His 'death' scene was fantastic, and throwing him back in at the end was a big let down for me, story-wise.

I did like the moral lesson, that we in the real world face the same cycle/dilemma. Brad, you should be happy about this, as you said you wanted to see something of this sort.

I don't know, maybe I need more time to appreciate it-- the first half was sooo good.

It's still a great show and stands as one of the greatest sci-fi TV series' ever.

Despite its shortcomings in this past half-season, BSG will go down as one of the best sci-fi TV series' ever.

And does this mean that I was right? That the tomb of Athena pointed to our Earth, but Starbuck's visions lead them to the 13th colony Earth? That 'god' wanted them to see Cinder Earth to teach them a lesson? So many things to address, but I will do so in the morning.

Likes 1st hour, disappointed in second

I was most disappointed that after everything our characters went through, they chose to live an incredibly brutish, short life on Earth. From the perspective of us, the viewers, NONE of the characters survived. Colonial society, and all major characters, died 150,000 years ago. No one was remembered. Not the final five. Not Kara. Not Adama. No one. That's it, vanished into entropy and disappeared from history.

There can be no mental life for these characters in our memories after the series. If they had ended up in a future earth, we could have surmised in an open ended way that they succeeded in rebuilding everything they had lost in the holocaust.

Kara really did end the human race, the colonials are gone. Not a trace left. Spare me the importance of Hera's mitochondria.

The Cylons who sided with the humans because of some promised destiny of living on earth with them, all gone as well.

Plus, no explanation of the greek pantheon of the colonials. What happened on Kobol, the exodus, etc The could have explained the Angels as hyper evolved beings (anything sufficiently advanced is magic) from Kobol who perhaps went to war with one another. More lost opportunities.

I feel many of the big plot lines were just 'dropped' in a way, all to fit RDM's insistence that the Colonials somehow fathered us.

A bittersweet end. And Brad's right, it could have been an ending talked about for decades, and not in the way St Elsewhere was.

I disagree. The story ended

I disagree. The story ended with head six laying hands on ron d moore's shoulders as he read about mitochondrial eve. The head characters openly described eve as having a human father and cylon mother. They practically said it in his ear. If you really care to, you could then surmise that they gave RDM the idea for the show. Therefore none of the colonials were forgotten since we know all about them.

Deus Ex Galactica

I just finished watching the episode about 5 minutes ago.

I share a sense of disappointment that it was so unscientific. But once they'd decided on God being behind everything, anything can be "possible". God made another species with "compatible DNA". God put them through this strange journey for no obvious reason. It's unclear what use mixing the Galacticans with the natives achieved; they left behind nothing but a few (miraculously preserved through 140,000ya+ !) names- Adam, Athena, er Gaius...

I don't know whether nobody checked human history, or whether they had to set it then to futz up a link to Mitochondrial Eve. I don't know quite what "our" cylon heritage means, since we can't stick data pipes in our arms. Why God didn't just evolve these other humans, well... but then I'm not religious, and one thing I always hated about religions (and fantasy plots) is that the plans of Gods never make any sense at all, nudging people through adversity in mysterious ways.

I'd been expecting the religous elements to be really religious for some time, I've mentioned that on a.bsg and here I think, so that didn't surprise me, but it disappointed me. Starbuck was a ghost, apparently. I have to admit to rather liking that bit as it was such a surprise, but it made little sense in any rational way, it was more deus ex.

As you've mentioned, we know the galactican/human descendents have a grim future ahead. I did however certainly say on a.bsg that in reality, that would be the case anyway- even if they'd landed on an unpopulated world and tried to keep all their technology, they'd have lost it since they hadn't the mature economy to build or repair high technology, and not the manpower for many generations to create a mature economy. So they would descend into a dark age whatever. Still remarkable that they didn't even try to keep a few comforts. Presumably all the booze and fags went into the sun as well? Not to mention the hospitals, because you already did.

The other thing that struck me, having been interested in human evolution, was the question of breeding. The script seemed to deliberately point out that the natives had no speech- these are very much pre-great leap forward humans they're looking at. No speech IMV means no higher intellect but I admit that's a personal view (it's my view that the capacity for speech and complex thought are both moderated by the same brain developments). This is somewhat reminiscent of the debate regarding whether hom.sap.sap interbred with neanderthals. There is a strong argument there that they didn't (regardless of DNA, etc) on the basis that a stone age modern human would find a neanderthal (if we presume neanderthals had no speech) to be rather unattractive (regardless of looks)- a grunting animal. The same would apply here. The people they were looking at, at that stage of evolution, would be advanced chimps; and while I have the greatest respect for chimpanzees, breeding wouldn't be something I would relish personally. Baltar gave a sort of let-out on that that "we can give them speech", but if they haven't got it they haven't yet evolved a capacity for it, so from a scientific perspective the hope of teaching them would be nil. There's something rather distasteful there, I think. Maybe the writers didn't ask any biologists, and thought humans 150kya ago just hadn't thought of speaking yet but were quite capable of it. Gaaah.

Well, we got a real Earth anyway, and it was the ark idea. Sort of. We got the evolutionary question kicked out of the court by having God create things at random to make the plot work, including a planet with identical fauna (at least cats and dogs) to Kobol. Deus ex galactica.

I actually quite enjoyed watching it, except the second part should have been shorter. I know we have to say goodbye to these characters, but this felt a bit like one of those things where somebody's leaving a party and everybody goes through a big thing of saying goodbye, then they come back in five minutes later because they forgot their hat, and you have to go through it all again. I thought we were too late in the story to introduce some of those character beats. Most of them, in fact. It was nonetheless enjoyable to watch, but lacking in the satisfying answers department, and the science.

And that end robot montage was just terribly cheesy and badly done; a cliched idea that wasn't necessary, even if the angels coda itself was. Made my toes curl.

This was crap. Looks like

This was crap.
Looks like Kara Thrace is the harbinger of life not death. So why was Leoben scared of her? What did he think she was going to do as opposed to what she did do?
In the last few episodes there was plenty of time to make some sense of a lot of things instead of filler episodes and waiting for the last hour to try to cram something together. It was like watching a movie that the writers realized, "Uh oh, we'd better try to make sense of this. Or better yet, why bother. Lets just throw something together and call it good."

The final five don't come together and try to get smart until the very very end? Come on. Then they know that they can re-invent resurrection before they even come together and remember anything. How do they know they can, or that they all hold part of the knowledge? That could have been a story also on why they split up the info.

The lawyer was going to be the president when Laura left? What about one of the 12 council members?

Starbuck's father was most likely a cylon #7 and her mother a human and she ends up being an angel? Are angels born and have a childhoods? Angel Baltar and Angel 6 didn't.

What did Hera contribute other than proof that a child could be born? Nothing more was revealed about her. Why was she so important?

Cavil was willing to agree to a truce as long as his people got resurrection to survive. They had that before they attacked Caprica. But now that is good enough?

I was looking forward to them having a history of going back and forth between Caprica and Earth for many cycles and repeating the same cycle over and over without knowing it as their home planet got destroyed over and over. Also, them not being real humans but downloaded beings of their real human selves long ago. I thought for sure Dualla had figured it all out somehow and knew that if she killed herself she would probably just be resurrected somewhere else to live a better life or maybe not, but willing to take the chance because she had figured out they weren't truly humans.

A nice story would have been that the last remaining humans after a previous cylon attack cycle had decided to download their minds to bodies in a process created by the final five and Baltar, and leave their planet to find another home and later forgot this happened. Something interesting, sheesh!!

When Moore showed up in the scene in the end I wanted to hit him in the head with a brick. Just kidding, but man what a gip.
Oh well I was ready to be disappointed and it happened. I had planned for it because the previous episodes weren't really putting things together, just filler. So much potential wasted.

I agree, the plot is a

I agree, the plot is a roadcrash and Ron's comeo just makes him look like a tool. On the peace deal: people often don't know what they've got or are ungrateful until they lose it. The corrupt human society and Cylon spite brought them to that place. They might've got over it but for Tyrol being a putz. I'd already lost positive interest in BSG, and had lost positive interest in the final episode by this point so I didn't really care. As far as I was concerned the rest of the show was just about some tired old dog past his prime and squeezing tears from old matrons - just the sort of thing to make big shot TV execs and nu-femists feel warm and fuzzy. And that's going to make this show date as horribly as Ronald Reagan and the orginal BSG. Things change, and they'll change again.

Oh yea, and it really pissed

Oh yea, and it really pissed me off when the humans were shooting their guns and potentially running out of bullets but wouldn't pick up the guns of the dead and downed cylons around them. Caprica had two bullets left and Baltar a hand gun with no bullets yet no one picked up one of the many guns on the ground. Annoying.

Oh yea and Caprica and Saul love each other but then split like it is nothing and go back to their previous lovers. Weak.

OK, last one and I'm going

OK, last one and I'm going to bed. I did like that a little bit of life after finding Earth was shown instead of there it is and fade out. I also did like that God was guiding things along through the medium of man and cylons, stars, signs, etc. It had to be that way because only God could have all the things like the star going nova, Starbuck's paintings, Baltar's Angel 6 giving him info no one could possibly know, the final five getting off Caprica, timing of many other events way out of human control, etc. happen. To me God decided to stop the cycle and guided the humans how to do so by sending them angels as messengers. The reason why is not needed. How about the same reason my mother told me to do things, "because I said so!!". Brad makes quite a lot of assumptions and calls them science, what I would call unprovable speculation but this is not the place I guess. Evolution (a fairy tale) is not needed for the story. God decided to merge humans He put on one planet with those He put on another planet. Why? Because He said so. Nothing more. For His own reasons without asking lowly man his opinion. Working in those "mysterious ways". I read the Bible too and unlike Brad I do like it.

Brad, I do think Moore should have called you for ideas on how to make the story better though. I've enjoyed your insights and theories throughout the show. Good job. You made it fun.

Great Job Brad!

Brad, I agree with you 96 percent. Hell just the length of your blog kicks ass so soon after the airing and truly needs to be admired. Some of my gut reactions, I loved the first half, hell even most of the last 45 minutes. I love good science in my science fiction, but common, how do all the ships including the small ones have gravity.

Yes, its always been about characters,and I also loved the back history pieces and I bet the actors loved the character development as well.

As to my favorite ass sucking I cry bullsit scenes

1) Kara's Houdini Q bullshit act
2) Head beings as Angels

That crap no matter how you slice it will not stand any test of tv time and if you squint really hard when mixing science and religion you get awfully close to space flying DC-10's and nuclear exploding volcanos.

Great Job WSG!

I agree with you! Aside from those two points, I very much enjoyed the finale. Unfortunately, those two points are major ones, and drag down the whole episode. That's my opinion now, at least. After re-watching at some point I may change my stance a bit. The initial shock is hard.

Personally I would had them land on Earth in early greece, with them influencing their culture and religion, more like the actual Chariot Of The Gods idea (although I think that was Egypt), but I can live with the caveman idea, as silly as it is. What irks me more is that the only reason he did the caveman idea was because it fit in with a recent scientific discovery.

There were also some things left unexplained about their history and certain mysterious events. I'm wondering if the extended cut will expand on them. For what it's worth, the last half was a bore, and i'd have rather seen more answers than the colonials pussy-footing around a meadow for 45 minutes.

I also hated Helo's return. I liked the tragic ending for his character.

what a let-down

The first half was good. The flashbacks were good. The "RealEarth(tm)" stuff after Kara jumped was so full of trite cheap shots and Days of Our Lives and arti-superficial Deus Ex Machina happy endings hitting us over the head, ugh, ugh ugh. All that was missing were some Ewoks/Furlings to welcome them....

Besides all the bad-science stuff already noted above, many of the character moments didn't feel true either.

Hera clearly implied to be mitochondrial Eve from the cut, save us. Six never having a talk with Saul to say sayonara, and Saul and Ellen suddenly about to be happy together (instead of trying to figure out how to make booze out of grass because it turns out they still like the idea of each other much more than the reality), no frakking way. Helo not dying: lame. Helo and Athena should both have died in saving Hera, so that the original Opera House vision of Baltar and Six taking her/raising her would felt more true. Edward Olmos's last few scenes: too much make-up. And why talk to her grave, when just showing him wordlessly building a cabin next to it would have been more powerful/less saccharine? Angel-Kara leaving Lee without a kiss or even a handshake and "goodbye Lee Adama" or making it clear she was leaving him? Out of character given their many previous goodbyes. The modern-day robots and proselytizing: Way Too Obvious and insulting to the intelligence of the vast majority of viewers of this particular show.

Ugh. Sam saying "see you on the other side" and the few Baltar humor moments on RealEarth(tm) were pretty good, but the stuff taking place on RealEarth(tm) during the last half was incredibly underwhelming. Bathethic ending to what, despite its many flaws, was a great show.

Perfect clairvoyance implies Time Travel

The fact that the Opera House was not a vision of the past, but a vision of the future, implies that the one-true-god not only manipulated the humans and cylons after the war, but that it already knew the result, and planted the Opera House Dream in the main characters. Much like the "Oracle" in the matrix, it has the ability to predict the far future with astonishingly good precision.

RDM said no time travel, and to be fair, there was no time travel of matter from our main characters, but information about the future state of the universe that cannot be computed from the present implies sending information from the future to the past.

I guess you could bestow some Omega-Point style computational power on BSG's "God" in that it's capable of calculating future states of all of the major players and reason what intermediate states have to exist to get them there.

I still think I would have preferred that the Opera House was in fact, a distant race memory from Kobol, were another version of Hera was in it.

Very disappointing ending !

I really enjoyed the majority of this show, even the religious ramblings of some of the characters. Most of humanity is religious and has been for quite some time for a variety of reasons. It is a realsitic portrayal of humanity to have most of them believing in god and forming religions, especially so in the doom-laden predicament we find the rag tag fleet in. They are desperate for comfort, hope and answers and this is what relion and a belief in god gives them......but it is only a belief, end of story. To have god, or some supernatural divine entity, being pushed by the show as a fact really kills it for me, big time. It is then taken out of an accurate representation of humans and placed fairly and squarely in the realm of stupidity.

It could've been a fantastic show, but with such a bible bashing ending, it is merely a good show. Bad luck RDM, you failed.

Look, I was disappointed too...

but you can't say RDM failed. If he was happy with this ending (and who knows, he may not have been-- he regrets St:generations)-- than he succeeded. This was HIS story.

Look, I agree with your feelings, near 100%. They're clearly using god to cover anything they couldn't figure out how to explain or forgot to explain. It's akin to Joe Quesada saying that anything that doesn't make sense in Spider-Man's new altered continuity is just magic. As a viewer/reader, that kind of explanation is very frustrating because it smacks of laziness.

So you can say RDM is lazy (though we can still debate that with those who disagree), but you really can't say he failed.

Ron failed to meet his goals

Ron failed to meet his goals and once you let a story go it becomes the property of the audience. You can't get more objective than hard science and polls dropping like a stone. He pulled "it" off but what "it" is might be something else. What Ron sold at the beginning and what he delivered at the end aren't the same thing. It's a con but if I can borrow from his own script he smirked and smarmed enough to weedle himself through the eye of the needle as we were travelling on the rollercoaster. People never learn which is why "the con" never goes out of fashion. It has happened befroe. It will happen again.

Property of Ned Flanders

"once you let a story go it becomes the property of the audience."

If it is now my property, than I choose to rewrite the last hour. I've got some great ideas. Tune in next week to see them on Sci-fi channel at 10/9 Central!

Well, you could do that but

Well, you could do that but you might also be a crap writer and run foul of copyright law. Plus, the whole thing's been broadcast and the production side has broken up and moved on. You'd be better of doing something new or moving on to finding a new show. But, you already know that.

If you can put BSG's accomplishments and people aside, and accept Ron said he fucked up and got a significant amout of creative input from fans you'll see he's pulled a similar stroke. The show is wrapped and it is what it is, and he's moved on to doing new projects.

People can and do produce great work or screw up and, sometimes, the audience can misunderstand or see things that even the creator never knew were there. Not every creator or audience takes a complete view. Perhaps, they're too immature or inexperienced, but it has value.

In contrast, George Lucas revised the thatrical originals and substituted glossy for substance in the prequels. Now, he's totally abandoned finishing the story with the remaining sequels. Maybe the guy is right or, maybe, he just needs to get over himself and finish the damn job.

Oh, george!

Whether it reasons are noble or not, I think we're better off Lucas didn't finish his story. If RDM has admittedly he's fucked up, then fine, otherwise I have no interest in calling him out just because the finale wasn't up to my expectations.

Like Brad, I believe Ron

Like Brad, I believe Ron failed to meet his goals and the audience was misled. It did some stuff and fucked up here and there. People got something out of it but on another level it's just Battlescam Galactica - a shiny thing that parts rubes from their money.

I don't normally watching making of stuff. It's too full of positive pitches, precious actors spooging over each other, the token hint of SFX department and writers room. It's just a techno-schmaltzy advert made for free on the back of camera downtime that grabs eyeballs and rings up a few more advertising dollars. I skipped through the BSG making of special and it followed that formula. Making of my sodding ass. Ron parked his face front and centre to the camera so is playing cute while the slackjaws lap it up.

Sure, that sounds a bit angry and bitter. Maybe a bit trollish and flamebaity as well but to see people promise X on one hand and airbrush over with "not up to expectations" gets me a bit. Politicians pull that shit all the time and when they do people hate them for a reason. I'm going to take a step back from being judgemental because I know that both politics and entertainment are, to some degree, the art of the possible but people need to think about that. It's always "if we did this" or "if you did that". Tough talking politics for hard working familes. Gimme a break.

As for George Lucas, I've no idea where the guy is coming from, whether he will pick up the remaining episodes that were promises before he retconned his own history, or if they'll be any good but I do know that throwing a pebble into a pond causes ripples. People never admit it and, sometimes, are not even aware of the cause but the tiniest of pebbles can start an avalanche. Like Ron, I'm just trying it on. Lucas might get a poke and take his "God-ego" for a stroll or get in a sweat over his "legacy" being eclipsed. Who knows? We'll deal with the afterwards, later. ;-)

Clones

Maybe it's because i'm watching it with my son, but I am really enjoying the Clone Wars series. I think it's brought the series back to its roots: romp stomping space fantasy. It's actually pretty dark at times.

I've found it can swing

I've found it can swing between interesting and filler. The bit I can't stand is the treacley with a leap and a bound the hero was free nonsense. It's too sentimental and happy clappy. *Gag* Star Wars is generally a good idea and has helped give birth to some really good stuff. It just turns to shit when George Lucas gets too close to it.

How exactly were you misled?

How exactly were you misled? RDM is not obligated to write the story the way YOU want it to go! Liking it or not is one thing, but acting like you were owed something is just ridiculous. Your comparison to politicians lying about things, that can and do effect peoples lives in the REAL WORLD, is moronic.

the ending of BSG

I would personally like to thank Ron Moore and the religious channel for getting people hooked on this wonderful TV show and showing that angels can really exist in a highly technological society. I would also like to thank him for putting the characters who have gone through many crises of faith in a paradise devoid of technology. I created the earth with really good climate and devoid of bacteria and viruses so they can all live like the Waltons. I withhold the right to use natural disasters on the population as i see fit if they break any rules in the contract. It was wonderful to see that irrationality is still a powerful creative force on your planet (good job i created naked singularities, my consciounce really told me to put a fig leaf over these naked things)

UNLIKE the bible the plot was so full of plot inconsistencies that you could probably fly a fleet of battlestars down them all, but you meant well. I liked the character of baltar who started out as a rational atheist existentialist turn into a hallucinating irrational christ like figure. I think he may prove to be a positive role model for others of his former ilk.

If the survivors won't screw with the monkeys i left there i may send a plague upon them. No tools will be allowed. The wheel will not be allowed to be invented. Being omniescent and omnipresent i just put the humans and cylons through sheer hell and pain just for entertainment value (i am a voyeur at heart you know) I could have just created humans with dimmer brains so they wouldn't be able to make things.....i have decided fire is not allowed as it may be used to harm people rather than keep warm at night or when it snows.... maybe i shouldn't allow snow because you can make snowballs out of it and throw them at people violently???

Evolution? what's that? not allowed....not my invention............

He's failed.

He's failed.

He's failed

He's failed

Laziness

I think that Ron Moore signaled from the very beginning that the show would have a religious theme and human beings feel most close to God when they believe he is intervening personally in their life. Think of all the Christmas movies and shows that end in a "miracle". We atheists and agnostics may not like it, but that's how the other 80-90% of people feel. Angels make them feel warm and fuzzy.

Ron Moore decided to tap into that instinct and having "God at the controls" was the most effective way.

It didn't really work for me, but my point is just that it was a conscious choice and not just a rabbit pulled out of a hat in the last episode.

He says it is a reflection

He says it is a reflection of his own belief in something that may not be god, but is out there that is bigger than us and works in ways that we will never understand. He specifically said that is why there is no one religion in the show and they never tied it to specific religions in our world because Moore doesn't believe in any of the organized religions, but as an agnostic believes there is something out there.

Agnostic?

If he believes there is something out there, he's not much of an agnostic. Deist or pantheist, if anything.

Zen is about embracing and

Zen is about embracing and dropping things. The trick is knowing the difference. The real trick is knowing we have that choice. People forget that which is why they get caught up in themselves, organisations, and movements. Others swallow a gun. It does matter, it doesn't matter, it might matter. There is a good, there isn't a God there may be a God. Who knows? Who cares? Wherever you go, there you are. Difficult to say more than that, really.

HAHAHAHAHA

Keep going with your RDM is a Zen Buddhist crap. He specifically says in the most recent interviews he has no belief in Buddhism and that is all an internet rumour. LOL! Fooled by internet lies!

I read his comments in an

I read his comments in an interview that he'd picked up a lot of Zen Buddhism and Eastern mysticism. I'm not in the best mood over RDM's equivocating so if he's changing the story again, I suppose, we'll have to deal with that like his bait and switch act that turned a sci-fi show into a soap. Before I conclude RDM is a lying piece of shit that doesn't give a crap for anyone do you have a quote for that?

Interview

I read his comments in an interview that he'd picked up a lot of Zen Buddhism and Eastern mysticism.

Where is that interview?

Facts work better

like his bait and switch act that turned a sci-fi show into a soap

Truth is, the show was sold on telling the story of specific characters. The original story bible had no script other than the basic BSG mythos from the original show (robots destroy Caprica, people look for Earth), but it had detailed stories about the main characters. Sorry if you misinterpreted something, but look at the reviews from the Mini onwards, they are all about the "character drama" in BSG. The only "bait and switch" is the one your mind pulled telling yourself this was space cowboys.

In RDM's words

Q: The series ends explaining a lot of the mysteries with the existence of a supreme being. Does that reflect your own beliefs?

A: I would say the show is reflective of my religious views in that I don't have really firm religious views. I'm an agnostic in the truest sense of the word. I think about these things -- I grew up Roman Catholic, I've been interested in Hinduism, in Eastern religions, but I'm not dedicated to anything -- I go through periods where I think maybe it's all nonsense; maybe it's the Matrix...I'm open to various ideas. And I think the show has been a lot about exploration of ideas, and the basis of faith and how can you come at it: one God, many gods, no gods, who knows.

http://blogs.amctv.com/scifi-scanner/2009/03/ronald-moore-interview-2.ph...

It sounds like he is pretty clear that he has studied many religions and doesn't really hold to any of them. He doesn't even mention Buddhism by name, while he does mention both Roman Catholicism and Hinduism, and any linguistics student will tell you by doing so he has shown a scale of importance. Can you reproduce this Zen Buddhism document?

We're probably talking about

We're probably talking about the same interview and related material. I guess, it depends how you want to read it. RDM has certainly taken positions or used material that comes from that perspective. If RDM "made the show he wanted to make" then I've made the comment I wanted to make. You can't have it both ways.

Anyway, arguing on the internet bores the hell out of me so I'll leave it at that.

You have have mentioned the

You have have mentioned the Buddhism interview for months, this interview is 3 days old. Can't be the same interview. Also of not, in the podcast RDM mentions Christianity, Judaism, and even Mormonism, but not once does he mention a single other religious philosophy in regards to decisions on the show. I would say all signs point to you misunderstanding something, just like you tricked yourself into thinking this was space cowboys.

Ron did an interview months

Ron did an interview months ago that was widely reported. Your quoted excerpt looked close enough that I assumed they were the same and didn't dig deeper than that. If Ron is clarifying his comments in ways that run against the earlier impression he created it looks as much bait and switch as turning BSG from it was and into what it became. If you haven't noticed, Ron's big on claims and has a tin ear when it suits him.

My main issue is the quality has dropped and it became some slushy ramble. If some people want to deny that or, as Ron himself did, dismiss people feeling they've been misled as merely wanting it to be a show about "space cowboys" they're deluded and out of touch. Again, this race to the bottom politics that bores me rigid. I can accept BSG did some good stuff and Ron had a thing going with the podcasts but you can't have the whole cake.

Anyway, if I started an internet rumour that someone pinned Ron against the wall with what can I say? I guess, people read my crap after all. God help anyone if I brand and market my bullshit properly. Oh, wait. I do. That's my job. I've commented before that Ron and myself are alike. I know a blowhard and a bullshitter when I see one though, to be fair, he did take a leading position and cut people some slack in other areas. I do that as well.

People just need to be mature about this stuff. There will be other shows.

so produce some evidence of

so produce some evidence of this, in your words, "widely reported," because no one else can find it.

Agreed

If he did the interview there would be proof of it on the scifi.com forums at the least and still on the original site at best. Not being able to find it on the BSG forums on scifi.com (where they have everything if you are willing to search), it doesn't exist.

I know what I read.

I know what I read. I just can't be bothered to go looking for it when it was published and discussed months ago, especially when someone's taking an attitude. Maybe if you'd provided a citation at the start and hadn't been so quick to rape me in the ass I'd take a different approach. As I said, internet arguments bore the hell out of me. If people can't be reasonable I can't be bothered.

in other words, "i made it

in other words, "i made it all up and now that i am busted i am gonna feign indifference to internet arguments"

No proof = no argument

Ah yes! The much loved I can't be bothered excuse. The most common sign of someone making things up. An argument built on lies is destined to fail, and it seems, like Kara Thrace, this destiny has come to fruition.

There will be other shows.

Actually, there won't be. I read in an interview with Ron Moore that the last episode of BSG will be the last television program ever produced.

Coincidence?

That is amazing. I just read an interview with god where he says Ron Moore wrote a completely 100% accurate history of life in the universe.

Ben Zuddism

Look, the thing about god is his place in the universe. I'm going to say something incredibly insightful now. I will speak in vague idioms and allegories that mean nothing but sound impressive. Listen to me, for I am wiser than you, and my knowledge will enlighten and bring you the inner peace you do not know that you so desperately desire.

i went to school with ben

i went to school with ben zuddism. good kid, but kinda smelled like cabbage.

Way to not know the meaning

Way to not know the meaning of agnostic and atheist....

Hi there. Agnostic is

Hi there. Agnostic is belief in something, but not organized religion. Atheism is belief in nothing. But nice try, I guess.

Actually, agnosticism is the

Actually, agnosticism is the belief that it is impossible to learn whether God exists or not. It's not a belief in a higher power, but a belief that we cannot be sure whether a higher power exists.

Actually that is only one

Actually that is only one type of agnosticism. The general definition is that there is an undefinable something out there, but it is something so big it is beyond us, which is why agnostics don't prescribe to any particular religious sect. The reason you think that is the definition of agnosticism is because when people started doing demographic research they needed a way to categorize agnostics, so they labeled them, with atheists. This created a new type of agnostic because people started saying they were "atheist-agnostic" (which made little actual sense) and has led to a very narrow definition of agnosticism that you are currently passing off as the prevailing belief, when it is the least prevailing belief.

I'm afraid that you don't

I'm afraid that you don't have your history correct. The term agnostic was coined by T.H. Huxley to describe his philosophical views. He felt that there was no way of knowing whether there was a deity or divine force, so he remained uncommitted. Atheists go one step further and decide that there is sufficient evidence to say that we can be sure there is no deity. Many people who call themselves agnostic, in the tradition of Huxley, are essentially atheists but who, wishing to stay true to empiricism, acknowledge that there is always the possibility of a very well-hidden deity. I used to call myself an agnostic because this was my position, but I found that people had come to believe that agnostic simply meant that you believed in a higher power but were uncommitted as to its identity. This is actually a kind of broad deism, and I did not wish to be associated with that idea. So now I call myself an atheist. It avoids the confusion caused by the co-option of the term agnostic.

Agnosticism

Agnostics are, to me, the only logical sect, as I feel it is foolish to be 100% certain of their being or not being a god. How can we 100% certain of that which can never be proven? And even that I am not certain of: it's entirely possible that we will one day prove it in the positive or negative. While atheists cannot conceive of such a scenario, it's possible-- and in fact likely-- that our intellect is simply not advanced enough to truly comprehend the science behind god/no god. The same way a prehistoric mind could never comprehend the science of a computer, even if you explained it to him. It just wouldn't compute because their brains were not advanced enough to process those concepts.

Responding to confusion of

Responding to confusion of agnosticism with confusion of atheism is poor reasoning.

Buddhism is essentially about yes, no, and maybe. I tend to subscribe to Zen Buddhism mostly because I'm lazy and it sounds cool, but one can equally embrace something as fluffy as Taoism and clinical as martial arts at the same time. None of these things is mutually exclusive.

Nope

I was not responding to the confusion of agnosticism with anything. I was giving my opinion on the subject, being an agnostic myself.

I was referring to the

I was referring to the previous comment, and expanding on your agnosticism versus religion thing. Religions can be as full of cruft as agnosticism, and some religion can be more sensible than agnosticism. This is a bit of hazy perspective where you're juggling 100 balls in the air but it's doable.

Intellectual confusion over labels and possessiveness are ego. Piling more ego into something just confuses and seperates things even more. This circle of confusion keeps going around and around, and travels through time like a train perpetually coming off the rails. It's quite simple and rather daft.

No, Atheism is not a belief

No, Atheism is not a belief in nothing, it's a _lack_ of belief in the existence of god(s).

It could have been worse,

It could have been worse, the ending that is. I haven't watched it yet, but at least we get Earth.

Here is a question... We saw Earth at the end of season 3, North America to be exact, but if that was Earth the way it existed in the time of the show, roughly 150 thousand years ago, wasn't there a giant sheet of glacial ice and snow covering much of North America during that time?

They showed a more modern Earth

Perhaps because they hadn't written how they would end it yet, or perhaps to make it more recognizable. If they'd shown it as you describe, everyone would have known it took place long ago.

Ice Ages

Ice ages come and go. It's very likely the North America was the globe in a temperate phase, 150,000 years ago.

No

The last Great Ice Age started 2 million years ago, and ended only 10 to 12 thousand years ago, and was at it's peak throughout the existence of Cromagnons and Neanderthals. There was warmer and cooler periods, but not enough warming to melt away the mile thick layer of ice that covered most of North America and Eurasia.

Count Iblis Made them do it...

or at least that's what I choose to beleive. It dosn't make me like the ending though.

I’m not an authority of divine intervention but I was raised a Roman Catholic and nothing I saw the virtual beings do indicated to me they were angles in any sense I understood angles to be. They got directly involved with a lot of stuff. All through the show they worked through Balter then Six (who seemed evil to me) and it turned out the final five to screw up everything for humans over thousands of years. If it wasn’t for the virtual beings the five would not have traveled to the Colonies and the Colonial vs Cylon war would not have ended the way it did. The skin jobs would not have been created with “resurrection” and the colonies would not have been nuked, starting this latest Cycle. At the end in New York the virtual beings said to each other their boss didn’t like to be called god and gave each other mischievous little grins. I’m going to choose to interpret this to mean that they are in fact fallen angels of some sort working for a leader fallen angle. This is sort of like how BSG1978 implied Count Iblis was Lucifer or Devil or whatever evil incarnate is. So my take the speculation about if Count Iblis was going to show up is that I would say he was there from the beginning in a more subtle way and was pulling the strings from the beginning. Wouldn’t entities working for a being like the count view themselves as angles and him as there god.

I’m not happy that what I thought was a Sci-Fi show turns out to be what I’ll call a supernatural Mystery tour set with Sci-Fi level tech as the background.

I prefer to do what I did with G1980 and imagine seasons 3 and 4 never happened. After season two I thought the virtual beings were some kind of program from a previous cycle run amok. I thought the space between life and death was some kind of virtual construct generated by super tech throughout the galaxy. I thought the show was set in our future and everything that was happening was the result of mistakes we could make in the next 50 to 100 years with run away technology.

I’m not a fan of having divine intervention resulting in humans, dogs, cats and pigeons make them evolve across the Galaxy. Well its Sunday morning and I off to church now.

OOPS..

Saturday morning, Still got something to do at church though.

I'm pretty much in Brad's

I'm pretty much in Brad's camp apart from a few details with this one. As for the final episode I pretty much think it was an epic fail apart from a few disconnected moments. We're getting into a solid chunk of daylight after watching it and Brad's new topics and the show itself are still a bit too much to chew off to give it a serious response. Most of what I could say has been touched on by others but I'd like to repeat how much I've enjoyed Brad's topics, and how the quality and speed of response after the final episode is remarkable. Personally, I'm glad the show's over but I'll miss these conversations when Brad wraps the BSG blog.

Comment viewing options

Select your preferred way to display the comments and click "Save settings" to activate your changes.

Post new comment

His name is Brad Templeton. You figure it out.
Please make up a name if you do not wish to give your real one.
The content of this field is kept private and will not be shown publicly.
Personal home pages only. Posts with biz home pages get deleted and search engines ignore all links
  • Allowed HTML tags: <a> <em> <strong> <cite> <code> <ul> <ol> <li> <dl> <dt> <dd>
  • Web page addresses and e-mail addresses turn into links automatically.
  • Lines and paragraphs break automatically.

More information about formatting options