In my article two weeks ago about the odds of knowing a cousin I puzzled over the question of how many 3rd cousins a person might have. This is hard to answer, because it depends on figuring out how many successful offspring per generation the various levels of your family (and related families) have. Successful means that they also create a tree of descendants. This number varies a lot among families, it varies a lot among regions and it has varied a great deal over time. An Icelandic study found a number of around 2.8 but it’s hard to conclude a general rule. I’ve used 3 (81 great-great-grandchildren per couple) as a rough number.
There is something, however, that we can calculate without knowing how many children each couple has. That’s because we know, pretty accurately, how many ancestors you have. Our number gets less accurate over time because ancestors start duplicating — people appear multiple times in your family tree. And in fact by the time you go back large numbers of generations, say 600 years, the duplication is massive; all your ancestors appear many times.
To answer the question of “How likely is it that somebody is your 16th cousin” we can just look at how many ancestors you have back there. 16th cousins share with you a couple 17 generations ago. (You can share just one ancestor which makes you a half-cousin.) So your ancestor set from 17 generations ago will be 65,536 different couples. Actually less than that due to duplication, but at this level in a large population the duplication isn’t as big a factor as it becomes later, and if it does it’s because of a closer community which means you are even more related.
So you have 65K couples and so does your potential cousin. The next question is, what is the size of the population in which they lived? Well, back then the whole world had about 600 million people, so that’s an upper bound. So we can ask, if you take two random sets of 65,000 couples from a population of 300M couples, what are the odds that none of them match? With your 65,000 ancestors being just 0.02% of the world’s couples, and your potential cousin’s ancestors also being that set, you would think it likely they don’t match.
Turns out that’s almost nil. Like the famous birthday paradox, where a room of 30 people usually has 2 who share a birthday, the probability there is no intersection in these large groups is quite low. it is 99.9999% likely from these numbers that any given person is at least a 16th cousin. And 97.2% likely that they are a 15th cousin — but only 1.4% likely that they are an 11th cousin. It’s a double exponential explosion. The rough formula used is that the probability of no match will be (1-2^C/P)^(2^C) where C is the cousin number and P is the total source population. To be strict this should be done with factorials but the numbers are large enough that pure exponentials work.
Now, of course, the couples are not selected at random, and nor are they selected from the whole world. For many people, their ancestors would have all lived on the same continent, perhaps even in the same country. They might all come from the same ethnic group. For example, if you think that all the ancestors of the two people came from the half million or so Ashkenazi Jews of the 18th century then everybody is a 10th cousin.
Many populations did not interbreed much, and in some cases of strong ethnic or geographic isolation, barely at all. There are definitely silos, and they sometimes existed in the same town, where there might be far less interbreeding between races than among races. Over time, however, the numbers overwhelm even this. Within the close knit communities, like say a city of 50,000 couples who bred mostly with each other, everybody will be a 9th cousin.
These numbers provide upper bounds. Due to the double exponential, even when you start reducing the population numbers due to out-breeding and expansion, it still catches up within a few generations. This is just another measure of how we are all related, and also how meaningless very distant cousin relationships, like 10th cousins, are. As I’ve noted in other places, if you leave aside the geographic isolation that some populations lived in, you don’t have to go back more more than a couple of thousand years to reach the point where we are not just all related, but we all have the same set of ancestors (ie. everybody who procreated) just arranged in a different mix.
The upshot of all this: If you discover that you share a common ancestor with somebody from the 17th century, or even the 18th, it is completely unremarkable. The only thing remarkable about it is that you happened to know the path.

Everybody is your (genetic)
Everybody is your (genetic) 16th cousin, but not an actual 16th cousin.
First the math is wrong. The chances of two people in a room of 30 people with the same birthday is 70.6%, not an almost sure event. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Birthday_problem. Generalization to pedigrees needs to be even more careful.
When the subject goes as far as 16th-cousins, you'll likely have no more genetic segments in common with a 16th cousin as with an arbitrary other northern european person. At that point, identical-by-state is more common than identical-by-descent. Divide up the half million SNPs that 23andme tests by 2^16, and you would get an average of 7 from each 16th-great-grandparent (assuming no pedigree collapse). On the extreme off-chance that you match those with another 16th-cousin not through random chance, then those are identical-by-descent. On the other hand, on average, a northern european will match 75% of their genome with another northern european. Just by flipping a 75-25 lopsided coin a half-million times, you'll find segments shared in common of lengths at least 40 (but in reality shared DNA segments will be much longer). Such is identical by state. It is in this sense that "everybody is your (genetic) 16th cousin".
Now for the issue of actual 16th-cousins. Pedigree collapse has to be factored in. Pre-1800, outside of the main cities many villages were much smaller than today. There may have been 100 or fewer houses in each village. It wouldn't take more than 5 generations to have most houses related. Now, what if you take someone else whose ancestors 400 years ago are from a distant village in a separate country, also with many of the relatives contained within their village? Travel was rare. There's not likely to be family-tree overlap.
A better guess of the Ashkenaski population in the mid 18th century is about 400,000. http://www.statemaster.com/encyclopedia/Historical-Jewish-population-com.... But more significantly, much of that population arose largely from a severe population bottleneck of 1000-1400AD. Two arbitrary people selected from this population are likely to be close cousins by descent, but much more assuredly by state.
How much DNA
I agree that “almost surely” is incorrect and modified it. I merely want to point out that people have bad intuitions about intersections of sets and coincidence.
I also agree that the amount of shared DNA becomes nada at that point.
As for pedigree collapse, I think you agree that this actually makes us more related to random people from our geographic area, not less, which is why it doesn’t alter the main point.
If the Ashkenazi were only 400,000 (I looked a bit, but not too much for that reference, so thanks) then everybody is a 10th cousin, and of course, probably closer.
My main point was to show the math that even if took the whole population of the world as you source, we all were sure to have a common ancestor after what some people think is a relatively small amount of time (300 to 400 years.) In fact it’s usually much sooner. Yet we regularly see people saying, “Isn’t that amazing, we have a common ancestor from the 17th century!”
It is, in fact, completely unremarkable, and that is the main point.
I'm confused
I am an amateur genealogist and I know some basic statistics. But this is just confusing. Does this mean I could be descended and/or related to, oh, lets say a Japanese person?! What does this mean. Please Clarify this soon.
So the bottom line is...
We are all related within 300- 400 years ago?
I'm confused
I'm an amateur genealogist and I find this confusing. Does this mean 400 years ago I am related and/or descended from, oh, lets say a Japanese person!? please clarify this for me.
Possibly, possibly not
As noted in the article, there are populations that had geographic isolation and so had minimal interbreeding. However, there was some with most of the populations, though the Americas were isolated from the rest of the world from about 10K years ago to 500 years ago, and Australia from about 8K years ago.
This is interesting but...
So sixteen generations ago we are all related, that is fascinating. But as the person above has said, does this apply to Japanese, Australian Aborigines, Alaskan Inuits or some other far-flung peoples? I wonder how a degree of relationship would apply to those nationalities.
As for the question about being related or descended from Japanese person, I think it would vary from person to person who lived 400 years ago. What do any of you think?
Yes it varies
The main point is that if you come from populations that did intermingle, you don’t have to go very far to get to a point where it gets extremely unlikely that your set of ancestors doesn’t overlap with all the other such people.
So in theory...
As the person above has said, someone could have a distant 400 years removed Japanese ancestor, even though they could be African American or Caucasian American? Hmm, what does anyone think.
Yeah, It varies beacause...
Everyone living in Japan back then would have had different numbers of descendants; some had many, others didn't or none at all. Still, many lived long enough to procreate. And this applies to all countries around the world.
Where are these common ancestors from?
I read this and I have a question: where these common ancestors scattered around the globe 300 to 400 years ago or where they all from a specific region. For example, I am African- American, would my common ancestor with a Chinese be a Chinese person, a european person or a black person? What isyour take on this.
Where are these common ancestors from?
I read this and I have a question: where these common ancestors scattered around the globe 300 to 400 years ago or where they all from a specific region. For example, I am African- American, would my common ancestor with a Chinese be a Chinese person, a European person or a black person? What isyour take on this.
What are the odds?
What do any of you think about the odds of being descended from anyone in any given point in time? I mean, how likely is it being descended from a person in the 16th century?
Depends on the person
But to go back 500 years to 1511, say, that’s going to be 20 or so generations. Your family tree 20 generations back has one million slots, but due to re-forking (distant inbreeding) many of those ancestors will appear in many slots, especially if you came from closely knit tribes or villages in some sections of your tree.
So if you imagine you have 250,000 unique ancestors from that period — and I don’t really know what the right re-blending number is — you would want to look at the populations of the regions and ethnic groups from which you came, and you could calculate the odds of any one member of such a group being an ancestor. But many of us are mixes of ethnic groups, so only some of your tree is going to qualify.
If you are truly “purebred” and your ethnic group had a population of 10 million 500 years ago, and you have 250K ancestors within it, then the odds are 1 in 40 that any given one is your ancestor. However, the more purebred you are, the more inbreeding, so in fact the odds are poorer. I may be underestimating the inbreeding by a lot here.
Family tree calculations
If there was no inbreeding by the time you go back 28 generations ( around 1,000 AD)
You have 268,435,456 Ancestors - World Population was around 275,000,000.
My Mom's side & Dad's side of the tree meet with Alice Montagu, Joan Beaufort just to name 2 common ancestors of both trees & there are a lot more. I have SEVERAL places where a Ancestor has 2 or more children - they split off but come back together in a couple generations. I can get back to Noah through Shem & Japheth from either side of the family- PROVING it is the hard part.
Sweet stuff
So I'm related to {at least some} Japanese and other people of different ethnic groups 16 generations ago. That's kinda cool. It just goes to show how connected many of us really are but we tend to forget that.
Food for thought, the claim
Food for thought, the claim here is that we are all related by our ancestors from at most 400 years. I find this hard to believe, because 400 years ago do you think everyone then was first cousins or something? Like maybe they were all sitting around going, "man you think we're all related somehow?" And someone interjects... "duh, didn't you know every one here is no more than first cousins?" "Ya 400 years from now all our descendants are gonna figure it out." No, 400 years ago their were lines of genealogy were just like ours today. Their were only fewer of those lines of course.
That's not what it means
Those people 400 years ago in their region were also all 16th cousins to each other (actually closer, populations were smaller and stayed closer — but not 1st cousins.)
When I say that you and I are at least 16th cousins it means that you and I share an ancestor 17 generations ago. You also share a similarly distant ancestor with any other random person from your group of origin — like President Obama who is in lots of ethnic groups so he’s a likely choice. But you don’t share the same ancestor with him as you do with me. Those two people are themselves related but in a different way, and in the distant past.
What are the odds?
What does anybody think about the odds of being descended from any given person living back generations back? Like, for example, what are the odds of the ancestor of being a Lord, a Samurai, a peasant or a Tribal warrior? What does anyone think? My own thoughts would be to divide the population of the world by the number of ancestors to determine some basic odds. Well, please give me some feedback.
How far back do you want to go
Once you go back far enough so you have millions of ancestors at that level, then you are going to be descended from every type of person in the regions your ancestors came form. Some lords, lots of peasants — just as in the population then, there were a few lords and lots of peasants. You may get a slightly larger representation of lords and rich people because they could afford to have more families. Some lords were notorious for also siring lots of children outside wedlock, and thus are over-represented compared to the ordinary individual.
Since populations used to keep much more closely together in the middle ages (today we interbreed very freely by comparison) you will have fewer ancestors outside your ethnic groups, but it would be very rare to have none if you go back far enough.
And generally, within any given geographic region, go back 1K to 2K years and you are descended from everybody who lived then, unless that person’s line died out quickly (ie. they had no children, or grandchildren.) Once a person gets a line going it’s pretty much impossible to keep it from mixing with all the other lines. The only thing that will do that is a huge geographic barrier. (ie. the population of the Americas was kept isolated from Eurasia for 10,000 years until 1492.)
What about ancestors
I just had a curious thought. Could this counter-intuitive phenomenon, the Birthday Paradox, be used to estimate unsuspected ancestry? Like, could it be used to say that a European could have ancestors among the Medieval Chinese Population? How likely is it and how long in terms of generations into the past would it take? What do you think about that? Is there any merit to it?
Your ancestors
Because as you go further back in time, people moved around less and bred around less, things don’t branch out geographically as much as they would with today’s patterns. Again, going back 500 years you have a million ancestor slots, and due to overlap, a smaller number of ancestors. There were Chinese who made it to Europe 500 years ago and who were breeding with Europeans. It is not certain you have some of them in your ancestry but certainly possible if your general ancestry is European.
Fewer Americans came to Europe, none before 500 years ago, and I would guess they bred less.
My reply
But if you share at least on 16th G-G-G grandparent with any Chinese, wouldn't it seem likely that least one of those common ancestors are Chinese?
Sorry
I don’t understand this question. Because of geographic isolation, Europeans may not share with Chinese, necessarily. They will share with other Europeans. The math in this post simply says that if I have a million ancestors from Europe and you have a million ancestors from Europe, the odds that there is nobody in both sets are very, very low. If I have a million ancestors from Europe and you have a million from China, it’s more possible that they two sets don’t overlap.
I understand, sort of...
So only Europeans are 16th cousins?
I'm WAAAAY Confused!
Wasn't this article supposed to show how related everyone in the world is or does this only include people of European descent"
The world
Everybody in the world would be related if we interbred with people in other countries and tribes the way we do today. However, prior to 500 years ago, nobody interbred between the Americas and Eurasia/Africa, and Australia was also isolated. Travel was also slow within Eurasia/Africa.
However, there has been a lot of interbreeding in the past 5,000 years, so there are fewer and fewer “pureblood” people left on the planet. Soon they will all be gone unless they take tremendous effort.
Actually...
I actually took this up with some experts. They concluded that finding common ancestors for people of European, Asian and African ancestry would be within 300-500 years. However, this does not apply to isolated Native American tribes, Oceanic peoples and Australian aborigines. In other words, finding ancestors within that time frame would strictly apply to people of Old World descent, not including the completely isolated peoples.
Lets narrow things down...
Lets say just Asians, Europeans, Africans and other non-isolated populations can be included. Judging from my own intuition and other factors on the field I have contacted, could 16th cousins still hold? I mean, that far back, each couple could potentially have 4294967296 people descended from them. Of course, due to inbreeding, ancestors are shared thus increasing the odds of anyone being descended from them. So lets just say Asians, Europeans and Africans. How would that turn out?
It's harder over the long distances
The numbers are huge, but the amount of travel and interbreeding of the regions was much less until the 19th century and in the 20th century the borders were vastly lowered to interbreeding. I say everybody is your cousin within the breeding community you came from but it takes a lot of detail to track the more dispersed groups.
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