Baltar the Final Cylon

The extended version of Razor contains this additional prophecy from the First Hybrid.

At last, they’ve come for me. I feel their lives, their destinies, spilling out before me. The denial of the one true path. To play that out on a world not their own. But will they be soon enough? Soon there will be four glorious new awakenings, struggling with the knowledge of their true selves, the pain of revelation bringing new clarity. And in the midst of confusion he will find her. Enemies are brought together by impossible longing. Enemies now joined as one. The way forward, the once unthinkable, yet inevitable. And the fifth is still is in shadow, drawn toward the light, hungering for redemption, that will only come in the howl of terrible suffering. I can see them all - the seven, now six, self-described machines who believe themselves are of no sin, but in time it is sin that will consume them. They will know enmity, bitterness, the wrenching agony of the one splintering into many. And then they will join the promised land, gathered on the wings of an angel. Not an end, but a beginning.

These lines, highly prophetic, add more and more evidence that this hybrid is the cylon god, or closely connected with him. Update: the podcasts imply he is not the god himself, but is in regular communication with him.

But the line about the 5th and final Cylon seems to point at only one character. Baltar. This is not particularly satisfying, as it confuses the issue of Baltar as traitor. It makes his role entirely different. Though it does provide a good audience shocker, when compared with the old series, where he was a fairly 1 dimensional villain.

However, only one character in the show has done so much to need redemption, hungers for it, and has declared that finding out he is a Cylon would give him redemption. Sure, all the characters have done bad things and could use some redemption, but nobody like Baltar. On the whole, other characters like Adama, Roslin, Lee, Starbuck and Gaeta are heroes with a few flaws.

Ronald Moore likes redemption drama, and he seems to be preparing us for it.

Let’s consider other clues:

  • When D’Anna faces the Final five, and dies, her last words are in Baltar’s arms. “So beautiful. You were right.” He asks, “About what?” but she never answers. However, the only clear thing he’s been pushing her on before this event is whether he’s a Cylon or not.
  • She’s just greeted one of them with “Forgive me, I had no idea” and while she’s done ill to just about everybody, it’s Baltar she recently tortured. (Though with his nagging about it, she should have had some idea.)
  • Baltar has this inner six, and she’s not just a demented dream. She knows stuff. This is the best explanation for it. She seems to have been able to physically pick him up when he was beaten down, and many think she was Shelley Godfrey, the physical six who accused Baltar of being a traitor while head-six had vanished. Godfrey turned a corner and vanished herself, and head-six was back.
  • In the Hand of God Baltar randomly picks a place to bomb, and it turns out right
  • He’s really smart, smarter than most colonials, smarter even than the Cylons at things like tracking clues about Earth
  • The Hybrid calls him “the chosen one” and declares he is “intelligence, a mind that burns like fire.”
  • In various points of the show, Baltar is shown Christ-like, in poses like Christ, with hair and beard like him. As the final Cylon, he may be their version of Christ, somehow incarnated from the Cylon God. On the base ship, he gets a very Christ-like wound.
  • Inner six keeps insisting that Hera is the child of her and Baltar. Ravings? If not, it represents something like this.
  • Cylons keep falling in love with him, and never kill him. In fact, he drives them crazy. The Cylons who have close contact with him are the ones who rebel, and break their compulsion not to seek the Final Five. He has sex with Tory, #6 and #3 (and of course many human women too.)
  • As noted by many, he is very close to a nuclear blast at the start of the show, and while six is killed shielding him, later he shows up to get on Helo’s raptor with just a few minor scrapes.
  • In season 4, he gets a religious following among the colonials, and gets thought of as a healer. He may perform miracles. He seems to be chanelling real external information about the river.
  • He’s involved in everything. AI research. He’s in the middle, if not consciously, of the Cylon sabotage on Caprica. He is the one meting out clues to lead the colonials to Earth, and providing similar clues to the Cylons. Both are on their courses because of him.

Unfortunately, he’s in the “last supper” picture and it is confirmed that the final Cylon is not in that picture. Unless it’s secretly “head Baltar” in the picture, he’s out.

None of this is conclusive, but none of the other characters have nearly as many clues like this. The prophecy of the Cylon God bumps him up several notches as well.

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Baltar is excluded as the Final Cyclon

Baltar isn’t the final Cyclon according to speculation in Entertainment Weekly. There’s a photo containing quotes from an interview with Ron D. Moore. There’s also a bigger scan and high quality image without the numbering or text. I’m not sure what to make of it but I’d be interested in reading another meaty analysis if you’re up to it, Brad. I like them because they’re entertaining and it gives me something to chew on.

None of these

I face some disappointment if it's none of these. I think it has to be big, and dramatic, and the other candidates outside this group are harder to make dramatic.

I've suggested some elsewhere in the blog, such as Joseph Adama. He would be a nice shocker even though never seen yet onscreen. Cain was an interesting candidate but Razor made her seem less interesting in this role to me. Gaeta has been a popular choice, and he does have some mysteries to unravel over stabbing Baltar and a few other tricks, but I find him anticlimactic, as is just about any other of the lesser characters.

So my guess at this point is that Moore would not go so far as to reveal at this point that the final Cylon is not one of those in the picture. It's one of those questions he would be comfortable giving a deliberate misdirection on if asked, like "Is Starbuck deead?"

If it has to be somebody not in the picture I like Joseph Adama the most.

Baltar is the master cylon

There is more than one No.6 in the picture. I will not be surprised if the missing person in the picture is Baltar- a different version of him. Perhaps a Baltar that has come to terms with his true cylon identity and is confident.
Here is my theroy abt Baltar
Baltar is the Master Cylon and 1 of the Final 5 that ensures the cycle of "this happened before and will happen again". The Final 5 were not recently created but have always existed and undergo a continuous cycle of death and rebirth. They lose the memory of who they are each time and they require special triggers to realise their true identity. Because Baltar knows he will not rememeber what he is after he is reborn, "Original Baltar" programmed the 7 cylon models, including No. 6 to seek "Current Baltar" out and carry out his will - which is to cause the destruction of the 12 colonies and follow/guide Humanity to Earth. No. 6 in Baltar's head is actually a representation/projection of Baltar's own subconsciousness that helps to guide Baltar in his actions. This explains why Baltar is able to seemingly make random but correct guesses of where the cylon weak spot is (Hand of God), who is a cylon (pre-Season 1 movie), what is going to happen next (cylon-hybrid child), what is cylon equipment (cylon transponder), etc the list goes on when you watch it all again.

That is a new one

With interesting elements. We know Baltar is "the chosen one" for something, and was right about what he told D'Anna.

However, there is a real Cylon God out there, who was in communication with that First Hybrid. That first Hybrid knows the story, so who is he in your version? Who are the other Hybrids who it appears know Baltar is special too? Who rescued Starbuck and took her to Earth? Who arranged the Galactica's escape from the war, putting the final 5 aboard her?

There has to be somebody/something out there who is aware of the story and who is making events happen.

Well as I understand it, the

Well as I understand it, the hybrids are an extension of "The One God". The theory that Baltar who is one of the final five and existed before is a good twist but not one that has not been used before. For example in the Matrix, Neo is the most recent manifestation of the anomaly, and his journey of self-discovery took time, suffering, and love. BSG follows the same theme of this has happened before and will happen again. This time who is the most "human" and resourceful person, that person is the "Chosen One"--Gaius Baltar. The incidental hero and villan at the same time. By showing he is a cylon does not diminish his responsibilities or the show, it just shows how similar cylons and humans really are in the end.

what if the baltar in the

what if the baltar in the picture isn't the real baltar, but the inner baltar that caprica six sees?

Clever observation

But the baltar in the picture is in his messiah robes, looking like the Baltar in other publicity stills that have been released. Caprica Six's head baltar, who we have rarely seen, is clean shaven like this one but the new messiah Baltar is also clean shaven.

However, it is an interesting equivocation, to be sure.

Final five

I think the final cyclon is Tom Zarack. I look at that picture and it seems logical that he is the missing person. After all isn't he the vice president? He should be at that table.

Yes he is and no he isn't.

Yes he is and no he isn't. He is not one of the Final Five. He will most likely be the Final revealed however. Baltar is Number 7. He is parallel to the Lord of Kobol described as "the one who cannot be named". There have been many allusions to this, but the most striking is the holy symbol Baltar's one god followers pray to. It is a seven pointed star (Significant Seven) with a picture of Baltar in what would be the eigth point.

Obviously you haven't figured out that the 13 Lords of Kobol created the humans and it is human and Lord of Kobol hybrids which are the Colonial humans. That is the whole, "this has happened before and will happen again" thing. This time the humans created the cylons and cylon/human hybrids (Hera) are the future.

The what happened on Earth question is pretty simple too. The 13 tribes made an exodus from Earth and now the Colonials have made the return voyage and are seeing the destruction their ancestors committed. First line of the Sacred Scrolls, as told to us by Adama in the mini, is "Life here, began out there."

That's pretty much what I'm

That's pretty much what I'm thinking.

I know Americans have a thing about honest and blabbing to my European ears but Starbuck dying in Maelstrom didn't bother me in the slightest, and it didn't suprise me when she made a reappearance. It's an old and occasionally used plot device. He used it well and I can't understand why some of the audience or staff took it so personally at the time.

I've noticed Gaeta is building momentum in some quarters. That's a smart choice but he does seem a bit of a non-entity to me though, I suppose, there's scope to recraft his character in the first half on the next series. I just can't see that happening. I can see the appeal of Cain and it could work even post Razor but I get the feeling it's a time to move on thing.

I'm beginning to think you're right and Moore is deliberately obscuring the surprise. While there's a sense of structure and balance behind Battlestar Galactica, your own comment on viewing it as a dramatic exercise still holds true, so things can change and anything remains possible. I like that gritty and unpredicatable quality about the show.

Your suggestion of Joseph Adama has its merits. I can agree with that but it got me thinking about Laura Roslin again. Like the sound of one hand clapping, was Leoban talking about past, present, or future? With Cylon and fleet issues turning into a road crash next series I wonder if Laura and Adama will get married in the heat of the moment. It could work but has issues.

Anyway, that was fun, Brad. Thanks for the input.

Joseph Adama

While I do like bringing Gramps in as a nice surprise, he is only my pick if I really can't pick anybody in the photo. We are told in Razor that the fifth is in shadow, looking for the light, that he/she hungers for redemption and will only get it in great pain.

And that doesn't really describe Joseph Adama, or Gaeta, or just about anybody not in the picture except perhaps Cain, who does need redemption. But Cain is not in shadow and unaware of her status. She's either dead and not a Cylon, or downloaded and aware of what she is. So my bet is it's somebody in the picture.

If we pick up on your focus

If we pick up on your focus on the picture and prophecy, a comment from Romo Lampkin in 'The Son Also Rises' springs to mind: "There is no greater ally, no force more powerful, no enemy more resolved, than a son who chooses to step from his father's shadow." This could be a coincidence, a deliberate piece of narration prodded by the backstory, or a subconcious slip. Well, that's the only hard stuff I can find on "shadow". It seems to fit but I could just be dancing at shadows. Hah. Hah. very funny, Ron. What do you think, Brad? Is there something in that?

It was noted in another thread

And yes, it could be a clue, but it's not a lot to go on. Lee would be a boring final Cylon for me, because he's one of the less interesting characters on the show. He's so blah, you don't like him or dislike him. The one thing going for him is we have almost never seen his internal mental dialog, so he has the best shot of being a character who knows he is a Cylon. We've seen inside Roslin's head, and Baltar's, and Starbuck's and a little bit inside Bill Adama's (mostly his ex-wife.) I like the idea that the final one is not a sleeper, but then I don't like the sleeper concept much, it's been done enough now.

I agree, and Lee is just too

I agree, and Lee is just too anodyne to be the Final Cylon. Running through the options in the photo, if Lee is ruled out, and Baltar is ruled out because of his symbolic gazing at Number Six, and Laura and the Admiral are ruled out by Ron's earlier strong position on them, it looks like someone off-photo is the Final Cylon. Gaeta is too much of a bad choice in many ways. I mean, the awkward nerd is secret master of the universe? In someone's dreams, maybe, but I can't see Ron going for that. Romo Lampkin wouldn't be the one just on a strong dramatic performance, so I'm guessing he's in next series because Ron digs his riff and it's a crowd pleaser. I guess, pops Adama is back in play.

Baltar and Six

He put Six as Christ in the picture, but Baltar is always staring at her so I don't see how it means anything. He's the only one who sees her, at least so far.

Well, I figured that Six is

Well, I figured that Six is going native and with her God-complex would lead the charge to Earth. In that case poor old Baltar is left still not getting it in a moon reflects the sun sort of way. I'm guessing she's standing where he would be if he hadn't been such a dunce about things. Then again, Ron could just be messing with us and it'll be great whatever happens. Then we'll all go, yeah whatever. So far it's looking like a bit of Rorshach test.

Two sixes

The new Six (on the left) is the one with the new agenda (not sure what yet.) Baltar's internal Six I presume remains the same. She appears to be a channel to one of the powerful beings, possibly the Cylon God, which would be consistent with Baltar being a Cylon.

Of course since many other colonials have had channels to these beings -- Roslin with her visions, Starbuck and various oracles -- they can't all be the final Cylon so this channel is not enough of a clue.

Got another possible clue

Got another possible clue along the same lines. In series 2 episode 8 (00:05.05) "From the darkness you must fall" is scrawled on the mirror in Tigh's quarters. The Final Cylon was decided on by about this point. It's a quote ("From the darkness you must fall. Failed and weak, to darkness all.") from a book D'Anna spots while reviewing news video rushes. Not sure if this shakes anything out.

Tigh

Pretty sure Tigh wasn't planned a a Cylon back then. Though it could be a retcon clue.

I can't see how it had

I can't see how it had anything to do with Tigh. I thought it might be one of the handful of clues Ron says he's peppered the series with. I figured it stood out, and if there's a bunch of similar things it might start to form a pattern pointing at one individual.

I wondered if the appearance of The French Lieutenant's Woman book might be another clue, or any of the titles of fictional books that have made an appearance but didn't get too far with those. The French Lieutenant's Woman might point to Baltar and Number Six.

It's not Baltar or Starbuck or Lampkin or...

No one here has mentioned the obvious choice. RDM has you all stumped.

  • RDM has said the Final One has been in the series from the beginning (so, NOT Lampkin, Joseph Adama, Kendra Shaw, etc.)
  • RDM said about the "Last Supper" image that the Final One wasn't in the painting
  • It's not Roslin because she was looking at the Final Five in her shared vision with Athena and Six -- plus, she's fulfilling her role as "The Dying Leader" and she was in the painting (red herring)
  • It's not Starbuck because she's fulfilling her role as an Aurora-like figure (Aurora was the goddess or the dawn or new beginnings) and she was in the painting (red herring)
  • It's not Baltar because he's a tool of the Cylons -- he's the biggest red herring of them all -- and they've already addressed this issue in the series (and he was in the painting)
  • and, no, it's not Bob Dylan for crying out loud

So who is it?

!!! POSSIBLE SPOILER ALERT !!! DON'T READ ON IF YOU KNOW YOU'LL REGRET IT LATER !!!

Allow me to give you some hints first...

  • Leoben was right when he said, "Adama is a Cylon" (wait for it)
  • It's a female
  • Her name means Resurrection
  • Her name also means Duo
  • She isn't in "the picture"
  • She's an Adama

Got it yet? It's Anastasia "Dee" Dualla.

I know what you're thinking..."but the Hybrid said, 'And the fifth is still is in shadow, drawn toward the light, hungering for redemption, that will only come in the howl of terrible suffering' and Dee hasn't done anything worthy of 'redemption'."

You mean yet.

She's "in the shadows" because her true Cylon nature hasn't been revealed yet.

Also, why does the cast all call her "Dee" and "Dualla" when she's now Mrs. Lee Adama?

(BTW, "Anastasia" is Greek for resurrection and "Dualla" is sort of a bastardization of the Latin "dualis" meaning duo or two.)

As far as "hungering for redemption" you have to remember Season 4's story hasn't been told yet. Some of the hybrid's prophecy's won't be fulfilled until then. This was the clincher for me:

In a Chicago Tribune fan-generated interview regarding Razor and Season 4, show writer Michael Taylor reveals...

"I think Dee is someone who wears more of her character on the surface. She's basically a pretty straightforward, upbeat character, someone who says what's on her mind and is honest about what she's feeling. And maybe in the context of the show that makes her a bit less dark and tortured, and perhaps less compelling, than a character such as, say, her romantic nemesis in said polygon: Kara. However, I think we may find that even a personality such as Dee's has its dark side. 'Nuff said for now." (Italics mine.)

I think the "terrible suffering" for Dee will come when she reveals her "dark side" in Season 4.

Still not convinced?

Okay then. It's Gaeta. Good luck!

See you April 4th!

A popular theory

For those who believe that it's not anybody in the photo (which I don't) Dualla and Gaeta have been popular choices. You act like this is a revelation when her name has been a regular topic of discussion, because of the Adama is a Cylon line and many others. Certainly Dualla has had a surprising ability to put herself close to the seats of power, which leads many to suspect her.

Leoben, if he is an ordinary Cylon, should of course know nothing of the #1 Cylon, whether it's an Adama or otherwise. However the writers might ignore that. And while the hybrid has prophetic powers, he was correctly using tense when he talked about the unveiling of the 4 being in the future but all of them being in shadow now. So it's harder to buy this talk of Dualla
being in need of redemption for future sins.

Okay

Okay. But I'll be there (virtually) to give you the elbow when I'm right. ;)

You could be

You could be right. Like any good mystery, several candidates are possible and have clues.

But right now one thing that leads me away from her is that as much as you might want to nudge people with your elbow, do you think that she will be a very dramatic, climactic, exciting reveal? If either she or Gaeta is revealed as the master Cylon, I don't see it as being as shocking or dramatic as the revelation of Tigh. More like Torrey and Anders being revealed as Cylons. It will result in a "Ok, I see it, she's been doing things all along, getting in close, watching etc." Not "holy frak!"

Characters that would result in a "Holy Frak" are Bill Adama, Roslin, Lee Adama, Starbuck, and maybe Joseph Adama, in that order.

Baltar would result in a different sort of reaction, but it could be turned into a Holy Frak by revealing special and astounding things about Baltar's true role in Cylon and Human history. A story that makes it all make sense why he is the one who betrays humanity, and then the Cylons and then, I suspect, brings them back together at Earth. The dramatic shocker will be Baltar's story, not his nature.

But unlike Baltar, Dee, Gaeta and various others are simply not set up to be part of a grand story. They are not the "chosen one." Starbuck is set up for a grand story. William Adama is. Lee Adama is. The minor characters aren't.

The humans being robots

The humans being robots would be the weakest writing decision ever. Thank God you don't write for this show.

Oh, it's happening to some degree

The producers have told us the 4th season will show a major blurring of the line between human and Cylon to the point that you won’t be sure what it means to be a Cylon. I am curious what people think that means, other than the colonials being constructed beings too. No “robots” in the sense you might think of them — but then the Cylons, who are biological enough to be able to breed with the colonials, are hardly “robots” either.

A Few Things

Just a few things I've noticed. Maybe they're meaningful, maybe they're not.

1. I don't believe Leoben. I've seen the posts stating that he doesn't lie, but what about Kasey, Starbuck's "daughter"? He obviously lied to Starbuck during their entire time on New Caprica.

2. I think the humans are really cylons idea answers alot of questions. Mostly importantly it explains why the species can cross breed and it explains the "this has all happened before" concept. However, it doesn't explain why Baltar's cylon detector actually worked (remember it identified Boomer). While it's possible that the writers developed the detector before everything was planned out, I don't think it is likely. In fact, someone mentioned it in the last episode. I think Adama complained about how it didn't work. If the detector wasn't a part of the writer's original plan then why mention it again? I'm guessing that it will be important in the near future. Someone might decide to put it to use.

3. I'll be disappointed if anyone but Baltar is the final cylon. Someone here had said, and I completely agree, that the drama in this "revelation" isn't who the final cylon is but how his story plays out. I think there's much more to Baltar than meets the eye and I'm looking forward to seeing how intentional his character arch really is. I can't see how anyone else will be anything but gimmicky and disappointing.

final cylon

Does anyone think the Battlestar Galactica itself could be the embodiment of the final cylon? Its purpose to bring humans and cylons together to Earth.

Mores clues to Baltar being the final Cylon

In the latest episode notice the scene where cheif is jumproping listening to the radio. As soon as he turns it off his half cylon son looks at the radio and starts to protest and the cheif turns back on the radio without seeming to think about it. Who were the Cheif and his son both cylons listening to? BALTAR. The Cheif is at a point of disobediance to anyone around, even the Admiral because of his current state. Despite all of his best efforts to defy baltar in the latest episode he ends up taking his hand at the end of the scene. The only reason people have been ruling out Baltar is because of the Last Supper picture but remember there is only one Baltar in the picture and we know that there are two seperate Baltar entities, Baltar and head Baltar one of which is in the picture and one of which could be final cylon. How else could he project like cylons? How else could he be in another cylon's (six's) head? I believe his head six is his cylon subconcious leading him to do what he must. How else could he have done the things like randomly picking the exact spot to bomb on the tilium asteroid with no knowledge what so ever and survive so many hopeless situations with the cylons if there isn't more to his character. He may have actually been in the photo that was giving to the fleet by six and disproved by Gaeta. It may have been doctored if only to show more detail. In my opinion any clue clue that leads to the final cylon can be linked to Baltar and any clue that seems to disprove a person as being the final cylon can SEEM to be applied to Baltar but if you think hard enough it only SEEMS that and there is a back door that allows an explanation as to why it doesnt apply to him. I think the Last supper was a clever deversion to take the heat away from Baltar as he is the only person in the picture that can actually still be #7.

Head Baltar

That is a cute idea, I’m trying to accept it, but the Six in the picture (she’s in there twice) is the red dress Six which I think is head-Six. If it were physical Caprica-Six, it would make more sense for her to have head Baltar.

And the Baltar in the picture is clean shaven, but he’s in the outfit of prophet-Baltar, and we’ve never seen head-Baltar dress in this manner.

However, if we see Head Baltar appear dressed as prophet Baltar, that could add a lot of weight to this thought.

Crossover?

If I can obsess my irony thing a bit more, I reckon, Baltar was the chosen one but fumbled the ball big time and in those circumstances the flame tends to pass to someone else. If I had to guess could I suggest that Baltar is the Final Clon but his place in the scheme of things has been hijacked by Starbuck. It's not much of a clue but the Baltar plotline seems to peter out just before the last few episodes.

It could be that Baltar has one of those moments of clarity where he realises it was all his but it turns to ashes in his mouth while Starbuck, who's been hell on wheels for laying waste to every Cylon going finds herself in his place. In the bigger scheme of things one would suggest that the system is self-correcting. The original plan clearly failed but is somehow still on track. Its fundamentals must be broadly right.

Cool theory, huh?

Final Cylon must be Baltar

The reasoning for this is simple:

1. It must be an actor we will want to see A LOT MORE of in the coming episodes.
2. Possibly in the form of a much more confident version of the current character.

Who do people want to see more of:

1. Roslin? No.
2. Lee Adama? Boring. No.
3. Kara Thrace? One dimensional and boring.
4. Adama himself? No. His character is the tough guy of few words.
5. Dualla? Gaeta? Not interesting enough characters.

Baltar is the be all and end all character of the show whose brilliant acting and awkwardness steals the show.

BSG has done a great job of creating doubt when the Final Cylon has been obvious all along.

I'm more interested in the manner and situation that he is revealed to be the final Cylon and the drama of the situation.

Who thinks D'Anna gets killed or incapacitated in the coming episode?

Also, there are 13 colonies. Why is the "Final Cylon" necessarily the last one when that only makes 12.

Not really 13 colonies

The 13th colony is a Myth. It’s a cover story for the fact that Kobol isn’t the homeworld.

Anyway, we just got a giant clue that the final Cylon is either Baltar or Roslin in the preview on Hulu that just came out for “Revelations”, so that adds more boost to it being Baltar.

Now as I’ve said, Baltar is too obvious, so the real reveal will be the “why” of him being a Cylon, not the fact that he is. And the backstory of what he’s so special.

Another red herring?

Yeah, I caught that clue. Unless Ron has totally goofed the script it narrows things considerably. Then again, with all the plot dangly bits and teasing I wouldn't put it past him to tell a big porkie. This clue and his comment that nobody in the last supper photo is the Final Cylon don't match. I feel like I'm being jerked around a bit and that's beginning to make me feel a bit resentful.

Last Supper

I am not bothered because I see one of two things:

  • He doesn’t actually say that nobody in the last supper photo is the final Cylon. The reporter says it. He equivocates.
  • On the big mystery of the show, you expect the producers to lie to any direct questions anyway, as they did about Starbuck.

Why the delay?

Maybe. I guess, we'll see.

I find it a bit odd when Ron says the Final Cylon will be revealed near the end of the next batch if Baltar's kicking his heels on a Cylon base ship. I can't think of any reason not to tell him.

I understand the cast have been told but Ron may have shot different versions to keep it from leaking out, or leave the real work to the editing. It will be interesting to see how that plays out.

Still, next episode looks interesting even if the long wait afterwards is a drag.

"Hungering for redemption"

Hello all, just my two cents worth...

I note the following line in the 1st hybrids mumblings:"And the fifth is still is in shadow, drawn toward the light, hungering for redemption, that will only come in the howl of terrible suffering"

OK, now follow with me a bit. The final five have been around for a while. A LONG while. They were around on Kobol when whatever happened there happened. They were on Earth when it went up in flames. I am curious as to what part these 5 played in all those deaths and destructions of civilizations. There seems to be so much emphasis on the curent happenings a'la the 12 colonies destruction. I think the final cylon could very well have a LOT of things on his/her concience that they hunger forgiveness for that predate the current round of fun.

These 5 have been around. Have seen two civilizations rise and fall(maybe more) and most certainly had a part in the downfall of them. Who have they been in all these past lives? Leaders of nations? Priests? Generals? Scientist? Who knows, but they certainly had major roles to play. I am curious to see, and discover with them who they have been and who they really are. They know they are cylons...but NOTHING else yet.

Jim

The hunger for redemption

Certainly possible, however I have to say I would be disappointed if the redemption is over offscreen events, or events that apply to all of the final 5, not just to this one. The first hybrid singled out the final Cylon for this description, so it seems it should not be something that applies to all of them.


Though yes, they do indeed all need it. But this one should need it specially. And while I think that can be true if this one is the first Cylon, the creator of the Cylons, again it is better if the redemption is for something we have seen.

Howcatchem

You might have something, there, if Ron is following a similar pattern to the murder mystery novel. Both the crime and the criminal must be introduced at the start. The big suspect is Baltar. You know it. I know it. Jake the dog knows it. Now, all we need is a piano playing Colombo to appear in the next half of the series and we're done.

wheres tory?

hi brad! found your page whilst trying to check out any theories on the old net... i have a couple myself and a few are mirrored here, but any ideas as why tory isnt in the last supper pic?...is it becuase she is the final cylon???

Tory?

She can’t be the final Cylon as she is one of the 4. And she was quite a minor character before this was revealed, so like all the other minor characters, she is not in the photo.

Fifth Cylon

My research is that the fifth Cylon is a combo of Head Six and Baltar

The article I was looking for... My Vote goes to Baltar too :)

Hi Brad ;)

Finally I managed to find the article you mentioned before about Baltar which I haven't seen... till now. :)

Okay, I see that you have already mentioned some of the biggest clues,
about Baltar's candidacy to be The 12th Cylon ((or maybe 13th... but that's another story))
And I want to add 2 more hints, you haven't included yet to your list above.

1) In Season 3 episode 6 (Torn)
Number 6 Gina said that "We don't imagine. We project"
Just like Baltar "project" himself with Gina, in various positions... :)

2) In season 4 episode 10,
Dianna said she wants 4 of the Final Five.
Because the Fifth is not in the fleet,
which is when exactly Baltar was in the Basestar.

Well, although the majority of the Galactica society don't believe this,
I'm %99.99 certain that,
we "vote Baltar for the Final Cylon" campaign, are on the right track. :)

And the only obstacle "Last Supper picture" mystery,
is already solved in one way or another.
According to Ron Moore "Final Cylon is not there"
We can consider this;

1) May be Ron might mean by saying "Final", as the last one or as the order.
And since Tory is not in the picture, she could be the Final in this matter,
which leads us to this conclusion.
"if the final one is Tory and she is out of the picture, then the other four must be in the picture"

2) Or by saying "The Final Cylon is not there"
Ron might mean the final one is literally and physically out of the picture.
But that doesn't rule out the different kinds of its being essence... which doesn't break the supposedly true statement.
((Head 6, Head Baltar thing))

I start to think if the Last supper picture is planned as a DISTRACTION in the first place,
so we could focus on other issues / people for this debate, till the very last episodes of the serie.
And then Booom ... 12th ((or 13th Cylon)) is Gaius. :)
It will be a shocker for somebody... but not us. :)

((Sorry for my english.
I sometimes put myself in positions that I can't describe enough what I think.
But I'm trying to do my best ;) ))

Why has nobody posited the

Why has nobody posited the theorem that it's the other doctor in the series? He healed both human and cylon, and it's been said that god loves all his children. Also the scene when Natalie dies was a little eerie.

Nobody posited?

If you mean Cottle (Most people would say he’s the doctor, not the other doctor. The only other MD we’ve seen is Doctor Robert I think) he is proposed quite frequently.

However, D’Anna asked for “the four Cylons in the fleet” — so if it’s Cottle, why didn’t she want to ask for him?

No Idea there...but assuming

No Idea there...but assuming there are physiological differences between the "cylons" and the humans how did he know what to do with them?

Differences

That’s the thing, and it’s so odd it either means something or is bad writing. There are no differences you can see, not even under a microscope. Baltar eventually built a detector it seems but it took his special knowledge.

Why she would lie...

I do not think its Cottle, but I do have a thought as to why D'Anna would lie. Its because the "final" cylon is a sleeper agent of the "significant seven" and not an original model like Tigh, Tyrol, Tory, and Anders. Therefore the last cylon is still unaware of his/her own identity, like Boomer was originally, and may still be useful to D'Anna against the humans she obviously did not trust at the time. (Plus, if the cylon is a sleeper agent, he/she would not be aware of it and therefore would not take up D'Anna's invitation to leave the fleet anyway.) That the last cylon to be revealed is not a peer of the original four cylons will be, I think, the true "holy crap" moment. This, I believe, is what Moore is counting on to make up for the rather unexciting choices left once everyone in the last supper photo is excluded from being the final cylon.

And how would she know that?

While at first people debated “is she lying” about there being 4 in the fleet, that’s the wrong question. Of course she would lie if she had a reason. But she has to know that this is a workable lie, which requires her to know something something she won’t readily know — that only 4 have found one another. Since nobody in the fleet except the 4 knows that, she can only know to tell this lie if the identity of the 5th clearly revealed the 5th as different from the other 4. So no Cottle etc. Plus, look at not what she says, but what she does. She demands that 4 be handed over, and then is ready to nuke the fleet. If the 5th is also hiding in the fleet (Gaeta, Cottle, Dee, etc.) this makes no sense.

So many things I've never considered

First of all, thanks to Brad and all else who posted. These are fascinating things to ponder for me. I am the only person in my little universe who watches the show and thus have had no one to discuss this with.

The idea of Baltar is the most appealing. He's by far the most intriguing character.

What about the priestess who died in the episode where they searched for the temple of Athena? If she was dead, she wouldn't be "in the fleet"...long shot I know. Perhaps she has a lot for which to seek redemption - that's why she took refuge "in the cloth."

I suppose it's unlikely, since she wasn't a very substantial character.

More to consider

Elosh's recent reappearance had me leaning toward her too for a while. Perhaps the visions Laura has of the priestess are the virtual being is disguise. I really like the idea of the virtual characters, likely a manifestation of the Cylon god, being the final Cylon. This god could very well be looking for redemption. Throughout history radical groups have taken the teaching of their religion out of context to justify war. Perhaps s/he has been manipulating events since the fall of the 12 colonies to redeem himself for the actions of his followers. There are so many other clues, it just seems to make the most sense.

Yes, that is probably the virtual being

We can be pretty sure it’s not really Elosha because the script editors revealed they wrote that to be Billy, and the actor could not make it, so they quickly modified the script to make it Elosha.

Baltar

What about the fact that Baltar was not infected by the Cylon virus when he went to investigate the distressed bay ship in Season 3? Doesn't that eliminate him? Or does that leave a loophole - being "God" made him immune?

Hardly

The final 5 are entirely different from the other 7. 4,000 years old, so almost surely immune to an Earth virus.

I am fairly certain it's

I am fairly certain it's Baltar. I WANT it to be him. I just love posting these questions because you have such a sharper way of considering possibilities. Helps me understand more.

Roslin it is

Ok,

1. Roslin marries Bill somewhere in the next 10 eps. She becomes an Adama by marriage... Leoben becomes right in his prediction.
2. Rossie (Laura) is Pres and Bill is Admiral - they are twain as the seniormost leaders and represent the cheif union of Cylon and Human and together they lead the human / cylon future.
3. Their story - in finding love in each other - have been the longest in unfolding and their story is the only one that is unresolved by way of love and commitment. Everyone else has had their time in the sun... everyone else has had nookie/action, only they haven't... their sacrifices and responsibilities are the greatest.... and as their jobs jobs finish, so does the entire story.
4. Generally speaking, information coming from the production team about this or that (RDM included) is purposeful disinformation and meant to obfuscate away from the possibilities evident in the show itself... where that info relates to inshow issues that are unresolved.

You heard it here from John S in Australia on Jan 6 2009

That damned last supper

Well, the Last Supper statement came from RDM himself, and he’s been quizzed on it twice, once by me, and said no, it’s not anybody in that picture.

Now you may take heart that at youwillknowthetruth.com they released a version of that picture with Roslin missing, but the main picture still has her, and she was surely there when RDM answered his questions.

Otherwise I would be happy to see her as a contender. She does get the visions. It was highly unusual that she was on Galactica and the only member of the government to survive. And D’Anna did that fake-out.

But other people in the picture, such as Baltar, have even more clues.

Baltar's Child

"Inner 6 keeps insisting that Hera is the child of her and Baltar"

I've just watched Home again and thought of an interesting possibility. What if she's a little confused? Admittedly it wouldn't be in keeping for a near omniscient oracle but but I think it's still possible. In Home she insists that the child will be born in the cell built for Sharon. I could be wrong but I'm almost 100% certain that this is the cell that Caprica Six occupies after Rapture . It could be that the child she prophesied about is in fact the one we learned about in Sine Qua Non rather than Hera and that she was simply bluffing about Sharon's child being the one in order to keep Baltar sane and on side.

I'm not sure how much time elapsed since Rapture so I don't know if its biologically possible for Baltar to be the father but if it is then it fits in with the Opera House dreams. In Roslin's latest version Six and Baltar turn around to see Hera. If Roslin's dream follows on from Baltar's first visions on Kobol then they are turning around after viewing their child making Hera someone else.

Possibly

But my interpretation is that there is no significant connection between Caprica Six and inner Six. Baltar just sees the inner Six in the form of his lover, as does Caprica Six.

But!

I think that Inner Six does have some sort of affinity with all Sixes. When she sees Gina in Pegesus her first words are, "My God Gaius, it's me".

Interesting point

Had not thought of that. Yet she also says she is an angel sent from God to protect him. So she is not Six but may have more connection than I thought, or want Baltar to think that.

RE: But!

I don't believe she has an affinity. When she says that she is referencing what the two of them had been talking about on the way over. She was asking Baltar if he thought it would be a new face, maybe even a friend, or someone in power.

Speaking of the Six line, anyone notice hers is the only line that has different hair styles. Every other model is a perfect copy except the Six line. Even Leoban models always have the same shaving patterns. I don't think that is a budget thing either. Not by season 3 and 4 when this show had money flowing through it due to the success of the show.

Affininity

No, I think the poster is right. I think the writers did intend an affinity between Head Six and Cap Six. In the early episodes, Head Six spoke like a Cylon, though eventually she is clearly apart from the 7 Cylons. May be a change of plan by the writers, as they did not really know what she was going to be at the start.

RE: Baltar's Child

Or she is once again referring to the fact that Baltar is the Jesus figure and everyone is God's children, and Hera is important because she represents the vision of the future (cylon/human coexistence) that Baltar is trying to bring through the One True God. I know people are going to start mentioning little Nicki Tyrol now, but remember that the only cylon baby that ALL the cylons know about is Hera. Hera also represents the 'first' (as of now).

Not saying this is the case, just saying, you can't ignore the Jesus angle that has been played.

Final Cylon

This final cylon is a woman. If you look at the 'last supper' shot, the opening, next to Apollo, is occupied by a chalice. This is a symbol of the female in pagan (polythesistic) theology. This is why the Chief has a blade, the male aspect. The entire series has dealt with the intersection of pagan and monotheistic beliefs and it is interesting that the last supper table is filled with pagan artifacts, e.g.; chalice, flame, etc. With this being said, the final Cylon is Dualla. She fits the mold of cylons wanting human mates. She is an inside operator on the command team. She is smart and reserved. She had an unusally close relationship with Commander Adama. We are being lead to believe that it is either Baltar or Gaida but in the end I think Dualla will be the one.

On another note, I think we've been mis-directed about the "arrow of apollo." I think Lee Adama is that arrow, not the arrow Thrace picked up on Caprica. Lee will lead humanity to the "promised land" before this series is concluded.

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