Fix some eBay feedback problems

Like many, I am interested in reputation systems, and eBay has built the largest public reputation system. Many have noted how feedback on eBay is overwhelmingly positive — a 97% positive rating would be a reason to be wary of a seller.

It’s also noted that people do this because they are scared of revenge feedback — I give you a negative, you do it back to me. One would think that since the buyer’s only real duty is to send the money that the seller should provide positive feedback immediately upon receipt of that money, but they don’t.

Some fixes have been proposed, including:

  • letting you see the count of total auctions the party has been buyer or seller in, so you can see how many resulted in no feedback at all. Right now only eBay knows how large that number is.
  • double-blind feedback. That is to say that feedback is not revealed until both parties have entered it, or if only one party enters it, after the feedback period has expired.
  • Marking revenge feedback, ie. putting a mark next to negatives that were a response to an outgoing negative.

Thus you could have very low fear of revenge feedback and there would be no argument about who should go first.

This idea’s fairly obvious, so like many other obvious ideas about eBay one wonders if eBay doesn’t feel some benefit to themselves from not doing it, though it’s hard to see. I’m also curious as to why eBay doesn’t offer a “going, going, gone” auction where the auction closes only after 5 minutes with no bidding. That seems to be in the interests of sellers (and eBay which gets a cut of the selling price) and it’s certainly not something they are unaware of.

The only proposition I’ve heard is that eBay has decided that there is a positive value to itself (and possibly sellers) from bid-sniping, the process of bidding preemptively in the last minute of an auction to not give other live bidders (who didn’t use the automatic rebidder) a chance to come in with more. The only way this could be good woudl be if Snipers deliberately overbid in order to trump anything. Any research or thoughts on this? It may also be the case that the sniped auctions are more “fun,” or more of a contest. And finally having fixed closing times does facilitate participating in multiple auctions for the same thing.

I have also posted updated eBay thoughts and an even simpler system which eliminates revenge and in fact now have an eBay tag for all eBay related posts, including thoughts on eBay’s solution to all this.

Please Note: This thread is for discussion of philosophical or abstract aspects of the feedback system. Please do not post stories of your own particular problems from a particular seller or transaction. Keep it abstract.

There are photo sites where you can rate people's appearance on a scale of 1-10. The average average should tend to 5.5 with enough data (or 5.0 if a scale of 0-10 is used).

However, it is rare that any photo, regardless of appearance, gets rated less than 5.

Revenge is unlikely since voting is anonymous, and there is no requirement for voters to post their own photos.

EBay's rating system is intended to have an economic, rather than aesthetic basis. However rating inflation is common to both systems. Altruism? Guilt at giving bad ratings?

possibly only people who

possibly only people who feel that they are above-average looking will post pictures of themselves. So maybe it is extremely accurate!

[8^)

Why doesn't......

First, if there is any compensation or gifts given, anytype of financial compensation, I here by lay claim as my original idea. After my disclaimer, I would like to submit an idea I feel would satisfy both the "Ebay" buyer and seller and possibly bring some of your sellers, such as myself, back and willing to sell. I may not be your Biggest Seller or the one millionth item sold, seller, I do tend to find items which are purchased and my feedback rating is a 100%. I felt Ebay was reputable and would stand behind their sellers and buyers by a workable contract and rules and rating system.
My suggestion would reference the "free shipping" option as the only option. Due to the fact that our ecomomy is in a difficult state, free shipping ins't really affordable for the seller anymore.
Although the buyer did receive the best part of the deal, some of your buyers took a hit, such as myself, for incorrect shipping costs. One can't, as a reputable buyer ask for the difference after shipping and the sale. Not only would that be un-ethical as a seller, the chance would be low of receiving the difference. Ebay doesn't figure the higher cost of shipping materials, also. Encouraging "free shipping" is driving the home based business, small but I am disabled and making just enough to help with the extras.
My Idea is to offer split shipping costs as an option. Also have a disclaimer for the seller that shipping costs may be higher or lower. When lower, money could be refunded through paypal very easy. If over, the money could be added just as quickly or package will be sent when accurate funds for shipping are emailed to you. I know that I have used the estimator and the accuracy is very low. I have had to quit selling because buyers always will go for the free shipping but "Ebay" seem to be driving the smaller home based persons out of the door.
Anyway, Thank you for your time, June OBrien
360 721-6478 360 699-5570

You say buyer's ONLY

You say buyer's ONLY obligation is to send money, this is incorrect if a buyer leaves me negative feedback without contacting me first to resolve the issue I leave him it in return let me explian this a little. If a buyer buys a model from me, the model gets broken in the post so the buyer leaves me negatiuve feedback. Had the buyer contacted me first I would have mot likely offered him a refund if he returns the item etc. If a buyer chooses not to do this it warrants negative feedback... I'm assuming you don't sell anything on ebay then?

Item broken by post - only seller's mistake!

If a package sent by seller has been broken by post, have you EVER thought, that it could be your, (Seller's) mistake, not to wrap and pack item correctly in order to SAVE on your shipping/handling fee??
Offer a refund? No sellers offer full refund with shipping cost, LOST TIME and moral compensation.... think about it. I would live negative feedback to seller who doesn't gives full refund and appology.

Im dealing with a seller now

Im dealing with a seller now on a damaged item, they are giving me a new item and I dont have to return the broken one. Not everyone on ebay is evil minded.

Did you purchase insurance

Did you purchase the offered insurance? Most buers ignore this in order to save a few bucks but if the item is lost or broken they feel it is the sellers responsibility.

Anybody who purchases insurance for items under $100

As a former eBay LIVE CHAT representative, I want readers of this column to know something. Insurance is a ploy that SOME sellers use to gain extra profit. Knowing full well that the post office and other couriers rarely have mishaps, these unscrupulous sellers are pocketing the funds, and simply sending out replacements when a claim comes their way through the buyer. In most cases a seller who packages properly can make a thousand sales and have only one or two breakages - so do the math.... That's two or three thousand dollars for AT MOST a hundred or two hundred dollars in replacement costs.

I, personally, would be suspicious of anyone pushing insurance as a mandatory thing unless they're shipping proof of the insurance with the package. And then, at that point, the realistic options of possible breakage then still exist, and you're not likely to ever need to file a claim IF the seller packages properly in the first place.

THEREFORE - I'd like to mirror Brad's comment that return shipping should ALWAYS be the responsibility of the seller in the case of breakage BUT I'D ALSO LIKE TO ADD that this should also be the case when an item is "not as described", because currently, PayPal takes a pansy stance on this issue, and they require the buyer to pay the return shipping. Anybody in their right mind would agree that if the item isn't as described, that this is fraud - and we all know how the courts deal with fraud. It's just too bad that this isn't the case on eBay.

Amen?

Unfortunately, eBay doesn't

Unfortunately, eBay doesn't necessarily tell everything to Live Chat representatives (which is why there's a plethora of free websites maintained by "civilians" like the Hobbit eBay Help page), and there are some major holes here. The message boards are filled with people who found that Live Chat was not given enough information to answer all their issues. And I blame eBay for that first and foremost.

Speaking of eBay, the "ploy" you described is similar to the additional insurance PayPal attempts to add onto all sorts of services - making money when they know there are few opportunities for the item not to arrive safely. Likewise, it's the same reason why Best Buy and other companies push those extended warranties.

So first of all. Your statement completely omits the possibility of third-party insurers like UPIC, which many more people also use in tandem with Endicia, the PC postage company. Very few professional sellers and mail order outfits use USPS insurance, because UPIC is much easier - you just list customer info in monthly spreadsheets submitted to the company, and pay once a month for your costs. You can also register a package online and buy the insurance a la carte - which means you don't have to wait in line at the post office.

UPIC, like car or other insurance most people have, has a sliding scale depending on how many packages you ship and to where. Unlike USPS insurance, there will be no "proof" that is stamped on the package that insurance was used. I use UPIC only, and when I charged for insurance as an itemized cost, I had to explain that it does not involve a big green stamp on their package.

You're also forgetting that the responsibility for safety still lies with the seller. Insurance is not just for the buyer, it's for the seller too. I would only be suspicious of those sellers who claim in harsh language that if you don't pay for insurance, you're SOL. That - to me - implies that this person is more likely to ship you an item and then blame you if it arrives damaged. They don't have the force of the law behind them, but I think it's nuts to do business with such people anyways. Whether you pay for insurance or not, the seller and carrier (like the post office) are both still responsible - not for you having a bad day, but for making sure the package arrives safely and in a timely manner, in accordance with FTC rules. Good business means that you want to protect your relationship with your customer, and that means being proactive and positive.

The seller has a choice between integrating insurance costs into the overall postage and handling, or asking for a separate payment. Many people assume, as you stated, that insurance is just a "ploy", even when shipping fragile or damaged items, so many antiques, fragile and professional sellers ask for one sum that covers all costs - postage, handling and insurance together.

Anyone who purchases

Purchasing insurance is the buyers responsibility. What company provides the insure should be of no concern, as long as the transaction is insured. So, if the insurance is with UPS, USPS, State Farm or if the seller self insures matters little to the buyer, as long as the insurance is provided. In either case, someone makes the profit on the insurance, whether UPS, USPS, etc. So what you are saying is that you question which company has the right to make the profit on the insurance. My postion is, if you are the buyer, as long as you are insured why are you questioning who has the right to make the profit on such transactions? Frankly, it is none of the buyers or eBay business. eBays job is only to have a safe marketplace not to question every transaction. The buyer should only care if the insurance claim is paid. So, when eBay says its sellers are being judged on the amount of profit they make and and how they make it far exceeds what any auction company should be concerned about. eBay should really want its seller to make the most amount of profit possible because that will insure them coming back as an ebay seller and sellers pay the fees. Buyers to not pay any eBay fees. eBay cash paying customers are the sellers, so let the sellers make a profit and they will keep coming back to eBay as sellers and also as buyers. Cut off their profits needlessly and they will not continue to sell on eBay. If they stop selling on eBay the stock holders suffer and the value of the eBay stock goes down. eBays primary responsibility is not to buyers....its to the stockholders and that gets lost a lot at eBay.

That is incorrect. It has

That is incorrect.

It has and always has been the SELLER'S responsibility to buy insurance.

The item is YOUR (the Seller's) responsibility until it is in the buyer's hands.

If the buyer has to send the widget back to you, it is the buyer's responsibility for the package until it reaches them and thus it is the buyer's responsibility to buy insurance.

If you buy something with

If you buy something with paypal and you get a shipment, paypal wont cover you. they will only cover you if the shipper does not have a tracking number and you said you didnt get the item. If they ship you a box with nothing your our of luck, i got brakes from someone and they sent me the wrong ones, paypal said they are only there to protect or payment info. i was lucky the guy sent me the right ones after awhile, but paypal closed the case before he had even reshipped the right ones, they didnt care.

C'mon... DOA item, fraud? Really?

Okay, Mr. NotVerified.

An item arriving DOA, constitutes fraud?
*lolz* How many items are purchased through mega sellers such as; walmart zellers futureshop and others.
How many are returned defective. Well if you worked in liquidation/salvage you would know a good %25.
Okay sometimes the item is returned not DOA, but the buyers remorse forces him to claim 'defect'.

With your solid legal stance on fraud, maybe we should together open a class action law suit against every major retailor in the world. As you say, if somethings wrong, it must be fraud.
*lolz* or a counterfeit!

LMAO, you sound like every other noob buyer on ebay. great, great you worked for ebay live chat.
But what we're talking about here is buying/selling, fool.
not how live chat never directly answers any questions, or never has a solid stand on so many issues.

Go to the forum for X-LiveChat Reps, who still don't know nothing bout nothing....
fool.

return shipping

True. As both a buyer and a seller, I feel it is the seller's responsibility to cover shipping in both directions if the item is described improperly. I also think a good seller will see if there is a creative solution to a problem, as many sellers just use the "full refund" as a way to avoid actually fixing the issue. This is the same attitude that a retail store would be expected to have regarding customer service. If an item is defective, a suitable replacement should be an option if possible. A refund doesn't always fulfill most closely the contractual obligation of the seller.

Anybody who purchases insurance for items over $100

I posted this separately because it touches base on a separate, but yet very important issue.

eBay has another company that it uses to handle the risks of passing large amounts of money forward to a seller. The company is www.Escrow.com

You can figure out how Escrow.com works by logging in to the page, but the main gist of it is that you send your payment to escrow.com and once they receive it, they forward an email to the seller to let them know that your payment is secured. The seller then sends the item to you, and you let escrow.com know when the shipment arrives, and confirm or deny that it is in the condition you expected it to be in.

If you confirm that everything is A-okay, then escrow forwards your payment to the seller. BUT - if there's something wrong with the delivery, you tell escrow.com about the problem, and they make sure YOU GET YOUR MONEY RETURNED TO YOU AND THE SELLER CAN'T PREVENT THIS FROM HAPPENING.

Now THAT is insurance!

Wow, when was the last time you checked paypal policies?

*lolz* I think i should register here as an admin, with all these crap assed stories going around. Do any of you sell on ebay amazon or have an e-commerce of any kind?

I do.
Up to silver powerseller on Ebay. 14285 positive.
Promerchant on amazon. 9827 Positive.

Why would you push Escrow. when was the last time you used paypal.
They guarantee your money, they will take it back from the seller.

and as you say...
"there is nothing the seller can do about it"
Get a search engine buddy, you're so 2005...
fool

Not always sellers fault!!

I always put protective items around the purchased item when shipped and I have had things still broken, those postal people are NOT easy on those packages, even when marked FRAGILE. Why should the seller have to pay to replace something that was perfectly fine when leaving their home/business? Buyers should ALWAYS purchase shipping insurance not skimp to save a few bucks.

FEEDBACK

Are you Scared your SCAM or CON will be found out? Proper edicate states once the BUYER Pays on time or Early, You leave the correct feedback.
Scammers, and Cons will not leave feedback until you do, or not at all.

That is why I will not bid on items from people like you.

I am leaving feedback on the

I am leaving feedback on the TRANSACTION of the sale, not (IMHO) whether someone paid fast. There are many people who can not READ the terms of the action, get mad and strike the seller - My policy is simple and so stated, "Feedback will be left after you rate your buying experiance with us, please keep in mind we will leave the same."

Lie to yourself, not us...

What YOU are doing is being selfish, but simply being up front about it. Basically you are saying stating that you will leave negative feedback if you receive it regardless of its appropriateness.

Frankly I can't really see how you would ever get a buyer...

Are you some kind of

Are you some kind of idiot?

What about people who leave immediate negatives because they don't like it arriving in 4 days when told shipping would be 5, incorrectly interpret an emails 'mood', or mistakenly calculate a 50 cent postage discrepancy all due to their 'selfish' self interest of trying to get an item at well below what anyone could buy it for wholesale at times?

Knee-jerk reaction negatives are actually part of the buying behaviour that needs to be rated as to whether it was warranted correctly or not.

Actually, I think YOU're the idiot

Most people leave honest feedback, and there isn't much of a knee-jerk reaction if you did your job as a seller. Holding your feedback 'for ransom' isn't cool, and it isn't good business.
I can't understand why you'd support this type of a system unless you're one of those rip-off artists holding people's feedback for ransom and then leaving them negative feedback after you shipped them a 50Meg ripped MPEG of LotR when the item description was "NIB Lord of the Rings Trology DVD Collector's Set"
Go insult people who aren't 50 times smarter than you, or at least post something half-way intelligent, instead of pointing out to the entire world how stupid you are. If your parents read that post, it would probably make them cry.

NASTY BUYERS AND THE SCAMS THEY RUN

I HAVE BEEN A SELLER ON eBay FOR ABOUT A YEAR AND A HALF AND I HAVE NOTICED MANY BUYERS ATTEMPT TO SCREW A SELLER OVER... LIKE FOR INSTANCE "I expected it 2 be a bigger bottle but was ok. Diffrent colour bottle" THIS IS A NEGATIVE I RECEIVED... NOW IT WAS A 3.4 OZ BOTTLE WHICH IS THE LARGEST THE COMPANY OFFERS AND I SENT EXACTLY WHAT WAS IN THE PICTURE AND STATED IN THE AUCTION... SO WHY THE NEGATIVE??? LET ME EXPLAIN BEFORE PURCHASING BUYER ASKED ME SHIPPING COSTS THAT'S IT NOTING ELSE... AFTER RECEIVING BUYER DEMANDED A REFUND BECAUSE OF THE ABOVE AND DID NOT WANT TO RETURN THE PRODUCT I FOUND IT A BIT WEIRD ESPECIALLY SINCE I REFUND THE FULL ORIGINAL AMOUNT PAID I DIDN'T GET IT YOU DON'T WANT YOUR MONEY BACK??? IT'S JUST LIKE AN ONLINE STORE LIKE MACY'S IF YOU WERE TO BUY SOMETHING THERE AND YOU WANTED YOUR REFUND YOU WOULD HAVE TO RETURN IT...PLUS TO TOP IT OFF MACY'S WILL NOT PAY YOU BACK FOR THE ORIGINAL SHIPPING CHARGES AND IF YOU USE THERE LABEL THEY TAKE THAT OUT OF YOUR REFUND TOTAL AS WELL... I THINK BUYERS ARE LUCKY TO HAVE EBAY AND SHOULD BE KIND TO EVERYONE AND TRY TO WORK THINGS OUT.. A LOT OF SELLERS ARE QUICK TO HELP... BUT THEY CAN'T SINCE YOU HAVE NASTY AND RUDE BUYERS WHO WILL NOT EVEN COMMUNICATE.. I DON'T GET IT PEOPLE RETURN THE PRODUCT GET YOUR MONEY BACK AND BE ON YOUR MERRY WAY!! ITS JUST LIKE ANY OTHER ONLINE STORE IF YOU REALLY THINK ABOUT IT... IT'S JUST WAY CHEAPER!!!

Please, don't use capitals

Please, don't use capitals unnecessarily. Beside being considered as rude, it makes your post difficult to read.

leaving feedback

I can't really understand the back and forth here, as it's not a matter of opinion. The buyer's sole obligation is to pay on time. If a seller doesn't understand that, I can put it another way: There is NOTHING a buyer can do, besides pay, to make his end of the transaction work properly. He can't reach over the internet and pack the item better of get it to UPS a day earlier. He can't look at the item before it goes in the box to make sure it's what he ordered or in the condition described. A buyer is paying for something that he has only seen a picture of. The fact that most things arrive on time and as described is a testament to the basic good intentions of most people, and to a lesser extent the feedback system on ebay. If nothing else happens after the package arrives safely and on time, the fact remains that the buyer finished his obligation first and therefore must receive feedback first. I would still buy from a seller who violated this basic concept, but I wouldn't leave feedback. Or if I did, I would be more likely to leave negative feedback simply because the seller has such a poor policy that misunderstands the nature of the transaction. It makes that seller a bad SELLER, even if the item was right. (But not necessarily cool to call this guy names just because he happens to be wrong.)

All due respect, you are wrong

"...it's not a matter of opinion. The buyer's sole obligation is to pay on time."

Uhhh... that would be your opinion. I find it pretty funny how some people think they can call the views of someone they disagree with 'just an opinion', and their own view a 'matter of fact'. In my opinion, if the buyer's only obligation was to pay (on time.. ha), then there should be a check box that says simply 'paid'. The system automatically checks it off if paid via Paypal, or the seller checks it if paid another way. And the buyer's feedback would only say "paid" for each transaction. Now, think this through. If that were the system, and there was not a choice to say things like "Fast payment, great eBayer A+++++", or some other clever compliment, I believe this would be true to your idea that that is the only responsibility of the buyer. However, this would probably destroy any chance of sellers receiving positive feedback. Why? Because what reason would a buyer have for leaving some witty positive compliment if the item was just what it was supposed to be and all their feedback says is "Paid". If this were the case, then most of the feedback that will be left for sellers will be negative for when things go wrong. When things go right, so what, half the people don't bother now, they certainly won't bother if they don't get anything but a 'paid' sticker.

The point is, eBay's feedback has more to do with good will, manners, and being polite to one another. It is intended to be community concept, not an objective record. It is purely a practice of subjective opinion. A give-and-take sort of thing. Additionally, the buyer has not only the responsibility of paying (on time mind you), but also they have the responsibility of being reasonable, communicative, respectful, and decent. No?

When you leave a store after buying a product, do you ever say "thank you" to the cashier? Why? They are just doing their job, no thanks required. Or maybe your are just being polite.. hey... what a concept! They usually thank you for not only paying, but being a nice customer that they welcome back. But if you after pay for the item in the store, you then call the cashier an idiot because she dropped your change, then tell the customer standing next to you, "I guess only retards get hired here". Then drop the F* bomb to the old lady that wanted to check your receipt on your way out. Should you get a good report since, after all, you paid for the item... right?

Back to eBay. Did you know that after 9 years of selling on ebay only 55% of buyers left me any feedback at all? Why? Because many don't really care about it. So, why should I bother leaving feedback for someone who doesn't care enough to leave it for me? Feedback is 1000% more important to sellers than buyers.

Within the last year or so, seller's cannot leave anything BUT positive feedback or no feedback for the buyer on eBay. Those are the only two choices. So now even if a buyer does NOT pay, we cannot leave negative feedback. Fair... eh? There is no more retaliatory feedback. But the topic is not moot. The ONLY way we sellers have any way of protecting our butts is to not leave any feedback until we know the deal is good and completed. The only way we know that is if the buyer either leaves positive feedback or contacts us to complain. We cannot warn people about non-paying bidders. We cannot warn people about chargeback fraudsters. We cannot warn people about buyers who return broken merchandise in exchange for the new one they got from us, but now want a refund (that's stealing btw). No, we can't do anything to fight against bad buyers except block them on our own blocklist and file a claim for non-payment in order to get our fees refunded. This change is dumb. It is correct that sellers make eBay profitable, buyers pay nothing. Yet eBay makes it harder and harder to sell unless you are some large wholesale buyer, or a big chain, or a criminal. Regular folks get screwed, as usual.

So, the bottom line is, eBay feedback is a subjective matter of opinion users share about their dealings so that others can learn more about the members they are dealing with. It is based on mutual respect and manners. If a person does not say 'thank you' when appropriate, then I don't say 'your welcome' in reply... that would be stupid. Remember kiddies, always watch your P's and Q's, even on eBay.

@Kevin: I can see why

@Kevin: I can see why sellers would be frustrated at not being able to leave negative feedback to buyers, but sellers only have themselves to blame for this. Take for example what a seller said just a few replies up (it was from '06 I believe), saying they'll only leave feedback after they receive it and will leave the same feedback they receive. Sellers started holding feedback as ransom, and a lot of buyers just stopped bothering with it because they couldn't be honest and didn't care to abide by any silly terms the seller tried establishing in order to have feedback left. The bottom line is if sellers didn't try taking control of the feedback system than ebay would have never stepped in to "fix" it in the first place.

I used to leave feedback as

I used to leave feedback as soon as a buyer paid but I started getting an ungodly amount of messages asking for partial refunds for things that were the buyers fault. One guy misread the listing and even stated that in his message to me but was still demanding a partial refund and wrote "I would like a partial refund or negative feedback will follow". Another buyer returned an item that he had damaged and wanted a refund for his cost and shipping. This buyer wrote "refund my FULL purchase price and shipping or accept my feedback." This is NOT fair to sellers and it is why sellers wait to leave feedback. Most buyers are honest but there are a handful out there who will try to get their way by using negative feedback. I of course have reported these examples and others to ebay but it is awfully time consuming to deal with threatening buyers like them.

You speak for yourself.

I used to leave immediate positive feedback after receiving payment and the buyer leaves negative for no reason what so ever. Ask them to describe the problem and they cant. You have obviously not sold enough items on ebay to know buyers sometimes suck. I now leave feedback after they do. Holding your feedback as ransom seems to work out better for you. You will learn after dealing with some of the obnoxious buyers that I have dealt with. I appeal all my negative feedback.

Ebay Feedback

The situation with feedback on ebay is not one that can be defined in terms of black or white. There are a lot of gray areas and it all has to do with the integrity or proficiency of either the buyer or seller or both.

I tend to agree that the sale is never complete until both the buyer and seller are satisfied. I have a 100% positive feedback rating (almost 2000 positive feedbacks) and got most of my positives prior to deciding to only leave feedback once I KNEW THE BUYER WAS SATISFIED. What do I mean by this? It means that ask my buyers to let me know how things went either by posting feedback OR by emailing me. In either case, I do leave feedback. I actually started this policy because it was taking me entire days to leave feedback and one third of my buyer's were not reciprocating. If you research unfavorable feedback though, you'll see that a lot of it is left from buyers that did not take the time to read through the auction description and that many never even contacted the seller.

The one unfavorable feedback that I did get (a neutral) was because the seller felt that the shipping was too slow. The fact of the matter was that I shipped out his item the next day and mailed it directly from the post office so the date of mailing was evident on the envelope. It also only took 14 days for his item to arrive from the East Coast of Canada to California, which is within the normal shipping time (not that I have any control over that anyway). When he left his feedback, he had all kinds of red flags pop up from eBay to consider postal delays, to contact the seller, etc. etc., but he CHOSE to ignore them and left his unfounded neutral anyway.

I know I'm a good seller and for me, it's not about pulling something over on the buyer, it's about encouraging my buyers to be responsible with their feedback and to contact the seller if they are not satisfied. All of my items are sent out with a nice professionally written thank you note asking my buyers to let me know if things were not as they expected and telling them that I am committed to making the transaction a success. I will not vouch for other sellers but my reputation is solid and I make every effort to resolve any issues to the buyer's satisfaction. Unfortunately, some buyers are not responsible. They fail to read the auction details carefully; they fail to take note of emails the buyer sends (like shipping notifications); they fail to take note of the postmarks proving when items are sent and they fail to recognize that postage should also include the cost of packaging materials.

Now that's not to say that there are not some bad sellers out there. There are enough bad sellers that do not accurately describe their items, that give poor communication, that package terribly, charge too much for packaging and take too long to ship. They most definitely deserve their negative feedbacks but likewise, good sellers don't deserve negative feedback from buyer's that are not responsible with their purchases and don't take the time to email the buyer to resolve any issues prior to leaving bad feedback. Also, I would argue that even though the buyer's payment has passed through the seller's Paypal account, there's no guarantee that it's going to stay in the seller's hands. There are a lot of buyers who are scammers too.

Whether or not the seller leaves feedback first should not be the deciding factor whether or not to buy from them. I buy just as much as I sell on eBay and lots of terrific sellers follow the practice of only leaving feedback once positive feedback is received. A lot of them also use programs to do this freeing up the time they need to serve their customers better. What I would suggest if you're worried about "false positive feedback" is sticking to buying from sellers that specialize in what they do. Sellers that specialize are more interested in building repeat business and are more likely to be strongly customer oriented. Looking for positive feedback from repeat buyers too is also a good way to gauge how good a seller is because buyers do tend to stick with sellers they've had a good track record with.

What a stupid policy to

What a stupid policy to have. It was policies like these that made ebay make it so sellers can't leave negative/neutral feedback.

Just had a seller leave me

Just had a seller leave me negative feedback. I was selling step by step photo instructions of how to fix a particular type of laptop. The instructions were on my website as stated in the auction listing. The guy sent a payment of 2.99 which is 100% refundable and guaranteed. I received 4 threatening emails from this seller stating that he never received the item. I replied 4 times leaving all my contact information and the instructions. My email read receipts stated that the emails were received by the recipient but not read. I noticed one day he left me a negative feedback. It was An overall bad experience with the buyer. Why does he not deserve negative feedback in return? I clearly stated in the auction listing to disable spam filters and to check junk mail folders. Had he read the item listing he would have known where the instructions were. He would have known to check his junk mail folder, etc etc. With this new system I have decided to leave ebay. I'm not going to be held hostage just becuase someone sends payment. My feedback was 100% positive with over 1000 feedback score. I'm now only selling on kijiji and craigslist.

received negative feedback from a non payer

just received a negative feedback from a customer who did not even pay for the item purchased,, after waiting for payment for 10 days, i did a unpaid item strike, within 10 minutes the buyer responded to the dispute and then left negative feedback in response,, i then was unable to leave negative feedback for a non payer, but wow,,, was able to get listing fee back,, what a sham

Buyer protection - a way to keep 100% for buyers!!!

Hi all,

I was sick and tired of sellers, who tried to manipulate my FB and make me feel scared of their retaliatory FB. I've found out the way to keep 100% FB without spending any nerves!

I simply posted the following text on my "about me" page and I encourage every buyer to do the same:

Dear sellers,

I will kindly leave feedback for you after I have received your feedback.

A buyer’s duty is to pay for the goods (fast/slow/no payment?), inform the seller if the transaction was satisfactory - after receiving the item/s; if the transaction was not satisfactory for any reason - to try to resolve problems together - before leaving feedback. I want to assure my sellers that I will fulfil my duty as I have always done my homework.

The Sellers duty is to complete a satisfactory transaction, (or otherwise try to resolve problems together) and to provide a true and honest description of the item. As a buyer fulfils their duty first – the seller should therefore leave feedback first.

I respect your choice on the feedback you do / don't leave for me.

I strongly encourage sellers to build a healthier Ebay community and not put your buyers under pressure by demanding to receive feedback first.

Sincerely
xxx

Well, I must admit, dear buyers, that after that action I started to fell free and relaxed... How free can a person feel after realising that he/she doesn't have to kiss anybody's ass to receive positive feedback?

If seller is trying to manipulate you - you can manipulate back! No Ebay will protect buyers, so buyers must start protecting themselves.

Feedback

As aseller I heave recieved neg feedback for not accepting Paypal, which was just an excuse for not paying. I recieved a neg feedback from a woman whos father won an auction of old pocket watches which two were gold. The watches Were listed "FOR PARTS" The woman said they were junk and didnt work and she was not going to let her dad pay for them. The rest of my total of 4 out of 1780 negative feedbacks were from people who just changed there mind and didnt want to pay or morons who couldnt read. I signed up for WAGGLEPOP today where the fees are cheap,the feedback system is fair and there are a minimum of morons. If I can no longer leave a neg feedback where it is deserved I can no longer sell on ebay. I have joined the boycott and like thousands of other ebayers am moving elsewhere, after 10 years.

you say buyers only

your incorrect-I know your type. You hold peoples well earned feedbacks hostage to keep them from letting what shitty a packing job you do. Your nothing but a cocksucker.People like you should be banned from ebay.

you say buyers only

Wow, first of all, nice language.
Secondly, I see a lot of buyers on here arguing that once they paid, they are done with an eBay transaction. So if you fail to follow any policies AFTER you pay before the transaction is complete, then that is OK? Isn't demanding positive feedback for simply paying (which should be a given task) the same as gaining the upper hand in holding that threat to use as you say retaliatory feedback is? Obviously if you were left positive feedback already, you'd hold all the cards and then could make demands that are incorrect and unfair couldn't you?
There is a policy that you agree to when you sign up to use PayPal and eBay. Buyers fail to read parts that say if an item is to be returned, you as the buyer are responsible for the postage to return it.
For the idiots that argue if insurance isn't purchased that a seller should be responsible for damaged items in the mail - truly retards you are...I had a BOX of mail ran over by a mail truck and sent back to me with tire marks all over it. I chose to replace all broken CDs that were in it due to the large volume of negative feedbacks I felt I would get because once ONE PERSON left that negative feedback, the rest would snowball and all the ones affected though NONE purchased insurance, would somehnow feel vindicated in gang-raping my feedback with negatives.
Do you want to hear what a REAL BITCH about that is? I still got a few negatives because their items got there 'late' because I got BACK the packages all mangled up and had to go through and find out who's was damaged and everything - even though I still sent them another CD and didn't charge them, they left negative feedbacks. So you want to sit there and tell me they didn't deserve negatives for that and they were great because they freaking PAID??? I don't even leave negative feedbacks for losers that take 3 weeks to pay!!!!! or those who don't pay at all!

The new feedback policy will drive eBay into the dirt and you losers who only buy on eBay who right now feel like you have been done a great deed are really stupid to realize that in the long run, you lose - with more eBayers leaving eBay - prices of crap you buy will INCREASE - duh. Dumbasses.

Buyers only responsibility

It is ridiculous to say that a buyers only responsibility is to pay for the item. How about reading the full description, looking at photos, reading the return and shipping policy, and not expecting something new out of the box when buying an antique or something that is described as used?

Nope

Once the buyer has paid good money, if they misread the item description it's their problem. The seller does not need to do anything but ship what they described. Yes, the buyer can be an ass about it and complain and demand their money back and threaten negative feedback. They can do that any time, but all the buyer can truly do is leave negative feedback at that point, there is not much else. What you seem to be suggesting is the reason to not give feedback for prompt payment is to reserve the right to exact revenge on a buyer who leaves negative feedback.

That doesn't sound like a very good way to do business to me.

I believe this came into

I believe this came into affect when the seller can only leave positive thats why I love ebay and I'm a seller anyway if a seller waits for the buyer to leave feedback then the buyer has the right not to leave feedback at all or leave negative too say the seller is dodgy and has something to hide like some kind of trick up there sleve lol or just to express his individual feelings about his buy to help others not to be conned.

what about when you pay for

what about when you pay for an item, don't recieve it, communicate with the seller, open a dispute console, communicate for 3 months with
still no resolve with the seller not following his end of the bargin (i.e. investigating the dispute) Is it still 'unfair' to leave a negative feedback? I don't think so!!

Feedback

I like your Ebay feedback ideas. Ebay feedback is a joke. Bad sellers intentionally hold back feedback so that they can retalitate against a buyer who did absolutely everything right! So buyer dont post anything, this makes Ebays feedback system crap.
I also know about the site that rates peoples appearence and you are right, no one is below a 5, but if it makes you feel any better I have rated on it and I rated many below 5!

Fraud with shipping charges

Exqueeze me... where's the guarranty that "seller did everything right"? Some sellers dont state shipping costs in the auction and after auction end, they charge double-tripple on shipping costs (Like that fraudulent chain ISOLDIT), especially foreign and new buyers and then leaves retaliatory negative feedbacks to unsatisfied costumers, who paid $50 to ship an small item, which came broken and was not as described.
Today I asked seller (with no shipping costs posted) a question: "would you ship this item by ACTUAL ship. price + $1.50 handling?" She said: No. I'm loosing so much with paypal, that I have to charge $5 extra. Another wanted extra $10 fro handling, because of a hard ride to postoffice. ;-) .
And I MUST live them positive feedback first? No, I will live them no feedback at all. I will hire a bogus for posting a true negative feedback. After this negative feedback will be removed by Ebay's bogus busters, will be left another one and so on, to warn other buyers . Beware, fraudulent sellers ;-).

Sorry, that franchise chain

Sorry, that franchise chain ISOLDIT means "I Sold It on Ebay"

huh? Are you speaking in

huh? Are you speaking in tongues?

ebays rating rating open to abuse

I agree EBay's rating system is intended to have an economic, rather than aesthetic basis.

For ebay to suceed they need to make people feel comfortable doing something they are normally comfortable with, that is paying for goods online from people they dont now, or naturally trust.

That, I beleive, is the reason they will not be tough in making people look bad. Overall it will be bad for them.

However in the long term I will hope that a lake of empathy or ethics will bring them down.

BTW I pointed out a deliberate lie left against me in neg FB regarding the price. Seller techno56 said the price was lower than what I paid, just to trivialise what I was complaining about. Ebay said they couldnt do anything about it!

Ebay & Paypal sit on fence

I bought a pile of crap ebooks from info-books that were out of date and most had broken links. When I left negitive feedback, he offered me £5 to retract feedback. Sure I could have made a small profit from doing so, but I said no and reported it to EBay. Ha, he is still ripping people off today, 1 year after I complained about him. I sent ebay all the proof of a SCAM and the BRIBES, and they did nothing.
As for Paypal, if a buyer buys an item and don't like it, he can complain to Paypal saying item faulty and get his money back, less postage for returning item, even when the item is not faulty. Trust me, this happened to me.
So, before everyone thinks Sellers are all out to rip buyers off just concider the time wasting buyers that do not read the adverts correctly, causing the sellers to suffer.
Last point. I have been left positive feedback on all my items. On occation I have been unable to leave others feedback because of EBays faulty software, costing me about 20 positive scores!

SELLERS ONLY LEAVING FEEDBACK WHEN YOU DO!

IF SELLERS DO NOT LEAVE POSITIVE FEEDBACK WHEN PAID FOR REFUSE DELIVERY UNTIL THEY DO SO.LEAVE A NEGATIVE AUTOMATICALLY.EXAMPLE."NEGATIVE CRAPPY CUSTOMER SERVICE.SELLER WILL LEAVE NEGATIVE IN RETALIATION"THEN PEOPLE WILL SEE BAD SELLERS AND STOP BUYING FROM THEM.LETS GET BAD SELLERS OFF EBAY.

What an idiotic suggestion.

What an idiotic suggestion. Why on earth would you value Feedback from a seller more than receiving the actual item? Why order it if you don't want it? It's idiots like you who make being a Seller such a nightmare at times.

Just look at your ridiculous suggestion - you have actually said that if the seller doesn't post feedback before you receive the item you will refuse delivery. Well that will be impossible a lot of the time, and even if it is you have instantly broken the sales agreement since there is no way this is a valid legal reason for refusing delivery.

Then your moronic little walnut of a brain suggests leaving Negative feedback claiming bad service and 'seller will leave negative in retaliation'. Well how can they leave a negative in 'retaliation' if you insist on them giving feedback first? The reason people leave you negatives - and it is plain as day from all this that you've got some - is that you're a pain in the ass who wastes everyone's time, causes trouble for no reason and can't read and write.

People like you should be committed to a mental institution and left there for a very long time. You just make life impossible for normal people.

SELLERS ONLY LEAVING FEEDBACK WHEN YOU DO!

I keep reading some of you leaving comments about 'if a seller doesn't leave positive feedback first...' and you get mad, etc. Where exactly do you get that sellers are supposed to leave positive feedback first???? It is almost like you just say it and it's true. Maybe you should bother READING the given eBay policy which is humerous considering their latest dumb option for feedback - it clearly does not say that the seller or buyer should leave feedback first. Educate yourself before looking stupid. Your payment is expected - it isn't your last option - if you're telling me you can not break ANY eBay policies AFTER payment, then you are an idiot...leaving negative feedback without commuinicating at ALL with your seller is against eBay policy - the policy clearly dictates that you should contact the seller with issues prior to leaving feedback. In fact, when you leave a negative or neutral, it clearly states THERE that you need to contact the seller. The ignorance of many buyers and laziness to actually do this amazes me and generally leads to what you eventually whine about as 'retaliatory feedback'. The fact that eBay has given into your whines and stuck a bottle in your mouth and coddled you will be the eventual fall of eBay.

shoulda woulda coulda mabye

shoulda woulda coulda mabye you shoulda check the ebay policy again dumbass it does suggest that sellers leave feedback when payment is cleared anyway all this bloging wont change shit.

You did not enter the blog name correctly. It is ideas, contact me if the you have trouble
:D

If you have a problem with a

If you have a problem with a seller and ask Ebay to resolve dispute. I think Ebay will take side with the seller than the buyer, especially if the buyer is new or has not auctioned much. The reason is simple in this case: seller makes more money for Ebay than the occational buyer. Ebay would like to loose the buyer than the seller. The overwhelmingly positive percentage of feedbacks on Ebay is there for the same reason: The more positive feedback, the more likely someone will buy and the more money Ebay makes. Whether you buy or sell, Ebay makes $$$. When it comes to business, think money.

Ebay feed back

I agree that the Ebay feedbacks are bullshit.

You are in a way obligated by the sellers to give them positive feedback.
Even if you have been a perfect buyer, They won`t give you a positive feedback right away.
Instead 97% wait to see the feedback you will give them before giving you your feedback.

So if you are not happy with their product and mention it (they will revenge you)
regardless if you are right or wrong
for them a `good ebayer` is someone who buys from them, pays them fast and is satisfied with what they bought.

If you are not happy they automaticaly revenge you (you are a bad customer)

I can't imagine eBay is too terribly interested to lead a "War on Fraud" because of the potential damage to their business. In this is respect, eBay is a lot like a credit card company. If they crack down on fraud too hard they stand to lose serious money because A. Nobody wants to do business with a bunch of people who all have 48% or 32% or 68% approval ratings and B. Barriers to fraud and bad users are also barriers to ease of use and approachability of the service.
Better to set up a fraud dept., accept a certain amount of lossage/settlements as part of doing business and let users continue to be {altru|optim}istic about each other.

As Brad states, a buyer's ONLY obligation is to send money. Since most of my eBay transactions have been purchases, I have had many (TOO many instances) where the seller has not left feedback - even for my always-prompt payment. I refuse (as a buyer) to leave feedback for a seller who does not post feedback for me. It's just plain rude!

Just last week, I had my first unpleasant experience in five years of eBay'ing. I received an item from a seller who had not left feedback for me (I mailed my money order the day after the auction ended). I was not happy with the item - flaws were not disclosed in the listing - and I notified the seller. After three e-mails and three phone calls went unanswered, I left negative feedback for her. She turned around and posted retaliatory negative feedback for me ruining my 100% rating. What a B**CH!

Indeed, the system needs to be improved.

Jim "R90Sharpie" Sharp

Always try to resolve these

Always try to resolve these problems thru Ebay first. If the other party does not participate the resolution process Ebay will protect you against revenge feedback - they will add a note against the negative feedback and it will not count in your totals (but it will still be visible in the feedback comments).

This is pretty good step that Ebay has takes. But I do have a problem with their half-baked solution. If they have determined that one of the parties is not participating in THEIR OWN dispute resolution process they should block that part from posting any feedback for that particular transaction. Should be easy enough to do. I think active Ebay members should start pushing thme to do that. i send Ebay an email every month telling them they should do that.

eBay resolution system doesn't work.

Twice I have tried to use the eBay resolution for transactions that were fraudulent. (Seller sells one thing on auction and ships something else.) The only response I get is to contact PayPal resolution department since I used PayPal. The only offer from PayPal is for a refund and I will be out the shipping charge of returning the item. Also, I would have to return the item before receiving a refund.

1. I don't want the refund; I want the buyer to fulfill the contract that is the first item in the eBay user agreement: you must provide what you sold on the auction.
2. I should not have to incur charges of any kind for being defrauded by their system.
3. Why won't they provide a refund and when I receive it I'll send the item? Try to have them send you something before the payment! Since I have already proven my legitimacy by paying for it at the time of purchase and the seller has only proven their illegitimacy does this make any sense at all?

Further attempts to resolve through eBay or to submit these issues to PayPal only generate suggestions to use their resolution system to obtain a refund. It's a ridiculous circle and there is not a live person available to speak with.

Ebay System

I just had this same problem. Seller would not respond to my emails telling him about the problem. I was told to work with Paypal since I paid through them. The seller finally responded in Paypal and said he would reimburse me for the return shipping plus give me a refund on the sewing machine. Never happened! He turned around and sold the machine 2 days after receiving it back. Even with this proof, Ebay or Paypal would not make this seller refund the return shipping to him. Needless to say I left negative feedback.

Sharpie is right!

R90Sharpie,

You did the right thing by leaving a negative for that seller. I hope you posted a followup to the negative you received noting that the seller was nonresponsive to your communication.

Gang,

As long as you are respectful, stick to the facts and do not I REPEAT DO NOT RESORT TO NAME CALLING! The retaliatory negative will have no effect on your record. More than likely in the seller's blind rage, they will not follow my suggestions and break one of those rules. Then any sane person will be able to see what really happened by the "quality" of the 2 feedback comments.

ChuckZilla

We totally agree with Brad and Jim on this. Jim's "unpleasant Experience" has happened to us a couple of times.Something certainly needs to be done about it.

Brad wrote "Another idea however would be double-blind feedback. Thiat is to say that feedback is not revealed until both parties have entered it, or if only one party enters it, after the feedback period has expired."

Good idea Brad, but the only problem is that it is still possible for the other party to leave feedback AFTER the feedback period has expired.

Another idea we had was for Ebay to set up the system so as the seller leaves feedback first. This could be done so that if the seller has not left feedback before the buyer leaves theirs, they do not have the option to leave any feedback.

Regards
Tony & Sarah

Tony & Sarah are genious! Lets do that!

..."to set up the system so as the seller leaves feedback first".
That is so simple and genious, but Ebay will never do that, bacause they don't want to loose money. The worse seller's feedbacks are - purchase level sinks down.
But it would be a great idea to encourage every Ebay seller to send letters to Ebay with this DEMAND. Can be opened public website with collective pros.

My 2 Cents

I tend to agree with Tony & Sarah. In fact, when I started buying and selling on eBay, I just assumed that the policy was that the seller left feedback first, shortly after receiving payment. It just makes sense. I don't believe sellers should leave feedback based on spite. Feedback should be honest and reflect the truth of the transaction.

But it seems to me that in the last year or two I've been buying from more and more sellers who are expecting their feedback first. WTF?!? Currently I am expecting 2 packages sent by eBay sellers of which both haven't left me feedback, even though I paid them well over a week ago.

After some careful though, however, I have reasoned that making either the seller or the buyer leave feedback first may not be the best solution. After all, the buyer could also leave feedback based on spite. That's why Brad's double-blind feedback idea sounds like a good system. Tony and Sarah wrote: "the only problem is that it is still possible for the other party to leave feedback AFTER the feedback period has expired." I am not sure what you mean by this, but I am always the first to admit when it is I who doesn't understand something. :) Seems like if both parties could leave feedback anytime they wanted during the transaction, but neither would be revealed until the transation was over, this would solve the problem fairly. If anyone could explain to me why this wouldn't work, my open-minded ears are wide open. Good idea, Brad.

Just for clarification, I am an eBay buyer and seller. When I am the seller I DO leave feedback immediately after payment. Thus far I have found that if I leave feedback immediately, do an extraordinary packing job, ship immediately, represent my item for sale completely & accurately, communicate effectively and be reasonable I will get positive feedback. So far, anyway...

When I am the buyer I read the entire auction at least twice through, read as much of the feedback of the seller as I can (not just the number and percent), I pay within minutes (most of the time) of the auction close, expect feedback within a reasonable amount of time after payment (yeah, good luck), and on the rare occasion that I do have a problem I just simply contact the seller and it gets worked out. Perhaps I have just been extremely lucky, but I think taking the time to read the auction listing and seller feedback thoroughly help greatly in avoiding the negativities of an eBay tranaction.

And yes, I realize that even though it's 100% positive, my feedback score of 58 isn't that high of a rating. I have been a member since 2000.

Cool blog. Glad I found it.

- Gavin

Open blind feedback policy wont work because...

The reason it won't work is simple...you're assuming that ANY negative feedback left for a buyer who has left the seller negative feedback is retaliatory in nature. The truth is, if you actually reviewed most cases, you'll find that the buyer doesn't always follow eBay policy and make attempts to resolve the dispute beforehand. Most sellers do not want negative feedbacks for obvious reasons - it hurts their sales. I've received a few myself that I chose not to leave a responding negative. But the fact is, most sellers will do everything in their power to resolve issues and some buyers could care less. To me, if a buyer chooses to leave negative feedback and has not tried to resolve an issue at all beforehand, then that buyer deserves negative feedback because he/she has gone against eBay policy and never attempted to resolve an issue. Many of you don't seem to realize that many times sellers ALSO do not leave negative feedback for buyers because they also do not want retaliation feedback. Do you think if I left negative feedback for a non-paying bidder, I wouldn't get one back??? It happens all the time, so I do not leave negative feedbacks for non-paying bidders. NOW, I can't even file an NPB without the fear of retaliatory feedback from them!

The bottom line is, how am I going to know that I was unfairly left negative feedback if the feedback is blind? The feedback system the way it is works. If you choose to leave it, great, if not, move on.

The worse part is, that buyers have no real use for their feedback and still care. Them caring is the ONLY protection some sellers have. Many buyers would care less and carry 90% feedback and leave negatives at will without any communication at all. The fact is, I as a seller think there should be a way for me to block buyers with feedback of that sort....the reality is they can just create new eBay names and use them up until they are beaten down with negatives and then keep creating new ones.

I, however, have to build my overall reputation under one name to build up a score reputable enough for buyers to buy from me. Feedback weighs so much more on sellers that isn't fair as is - this new policy is absolute insurdity and defies logic - something eBay apparently can't seem to find anywhere - guess it wasn't up for bid. In fact, look for my auction upcoming - it's called COMMON SENSE. Maybe someone will purchase common sense from me and give it to eBay.

We totally agree with Brad and Jim on this. Jim's "unpleasant Experience" has happened to us a couple of times.Something certainly needs to be done about it.

Brad wrote "Another idea however would be double-blind feedback. Thiat is to say that feedback is not revealed until both parties have entered it, or if only one party enters it, after the feedback period has expired."

Good idea Brad, but the only problem is that it is still possible for the other party to leave feedback AFTER the feedback period has expired.

Another idea we had was for Ebay to set up the system so as the seller leaves feedback first. This could be done so that if the seller has not left feedback before the buyer leaves theirs, they do not have the option to leave any feedback.

Regards
Tony & Sarah

Ebay only make money from sellers, hence they get a better deal.

Also sellers probably sell lots, so one negative feedback will not hurt them much with the %, but buyers that only purchase now and again will be greatly effected by neg feedback %.

As a buyer I have had problems with false item discriptions, even if you get a refund (not postage) you end up paying postage for the item to you and back. Up till now I have not left any feedback for these bast^^&*ds because of revenge.

The 'one line' of feedback is not enought, I think there should be a page long about the grievence with both sides of the story and any stats from ebay being used i.e: unanswered or rude email etc and let the reader deside the truth.

I always email via the 'ask seller a question' at least that way there may be a log of the event/contents in a dispute.

Ian

Another great idea!

"...there should be a page long about the grievence with both sides of the story and any stats from ebay being used i.e: unanswered or rude email etc and let the reader deside the truth."

Simply to click on the link below each negative feedback... and you know the true story little better!

I agree. Ebay's feedback must be fixed. Sellers get way too much leeway. They get to break the rules and get away with it because that's how the money comes in.

Doubleblind FB is a good idea.
Having the buyer unable to give feedback until the seller does is good also. When I pay you, my part of the transaction is done. Over. That's when you should be giving me the feedback. I do not give FB until and unless I get it for paying you.

I tell all the sellers that want FB first that. Most ignore it. Most get a neutral FB from me then. Most give spite negatives to the neutral, and the dispute claims I filed have turned up NOTHING.

I'm reading these comments

I'm reading these comments on feedback and I agree to an extent. I am actually a seller and I always leave great feedback for my buyers. But I have to say I understand why people wait. I just sold some items to a guy, he bought 7 in total and now wants his money back for 5 of them stated that they where not what I said they where. In no way did I misrepresent my items or try to deceive. I was very honest in listing my item. This guy wants his money back and shipping cost back. By the way he only paid $3.99 for each item. Total sale was $19.95. I'm willing to give him his purchase price back but I can't shill out the shipping cost. I was honest and he just didn't like it when he got it. I think the stuff was all good and have pics to show quality and condition. So now I find myself hostage to negative feedback. Either I bow down to him and give him what he wants or I risk getting negative feedback for 7 items. Some people get stuff and only want a portion and if you don't agree to let them ship the rest back and get refund, your the bad guy and get a negative feedback. I had one lady that it wasn't what she wanted and wanted me to refund money before she shipped back. I refused to refund before I got it back and she left me negative feedback. I think to sum it up the feedback system is just flawed complete for buyer and seller.

Interesting discussion...

Interesting discussion... but not enough words from sellers. As a buyer I always left feedback first to show I was satisfied. As a seller I’ve been thoroughly screwed over by buyers who cant read a description properly (I got negged for sending a dark blue top which was described as "dark blue" in THREE separate places in the auction listing (but the buyer wanted black). I’ve also been negged by someone who evidently didn’t have the brains to use a tape measure on her fat waist then complained that the skirt didn’t fit (id given waist measurements in listing). Worst of all i was the victim of three separate Paypal chargeback scammers (buyers who make outrageously false claims to Paypal & ebay in order to try get the Paypal refunded and still keep the item). I think sellers get screwed over. Having said all that, I still have 99.9% positive and all the friendly & genuine buyers make me really appreciate the fact that the vast majority of people are genuine and to be trusted!!!... I guess there are just some really odd and twisted weirdoes out there, who spoil it for everyone - both buyer and seller. Jules

I sell condoms on a very

I sell condoms on a very regular basis. Basically as much as 1 in 20 people claim that their items never arrive... and if you hold firm and state that they have been sent with Certificate of Posting, then lo and behold they seem to appear as delivered within 24 hours!!!! If I were to give my feedback as positive as soon as payment is received, then trust me, I would be held to ransom from here to eternity by robbing scamming fraudsters... who probably make up about 5% of my clientele. I have ALWAYS sent out my goods... I take eBaying very seriously... and the system is littered with people scamming. Leave a pos on getting your goods... and I will give you one back!! Acknowledging early payment is no good if they lie when their goods get there. Sellers have their genuine reasons for late feedback. PLEASE NOTE!!!!! Greg.

Well, what do you expect?

Greg,

To be honest, what did you really expect when all of your customers are dicks? {insert rimshot here}

Actually, I do see your point.

Cheers,
Ed T.

1 in 20 of your customers

1 in 20 of your customers trying to con you out of a box of condoms? Wouldn't it be easier for them to cop a box of em at a local drugstore?
Sellers should leave first FB!

FB

Sellers should leave feedback first so buyers can then blackmail them to get things that weren't even discussed in the auction?
Back in the old feedback days, I USED to leave FB first until I dealt with unscrupulous buyers (and I have to say that there are more of those out there than ever before now...)
I left pos. feedback for a buyer who purchased an article of clothing.
He received it and said that it was wrinkled.
Wrinkled. It has been neatly folded and put into a shipping box. It was washed and dried first. Which is what I do with all clothing I've ever sold on Ebay.
So this chump demands shipping refund for both ways and a refund. Because his clothing arrived 'wrinkled.'

So since I had made the mistake of leaving feedback for him right off the bat, I did a disservice to other sellers. That buyer wasn't a good buyer. He was a piece of shit. And if he did this to me, undoubtedly he did it to other sellers.
That's a scam. And a half on the part of a buyer.
So is the buyer's job over when they pay?
NO.
This is a buyer/seller RELATIONSHIP. Not the seller show.
IT takes two people to complete a transaction and it's not finished until the buyer gets the item, lets me know the item arrived and that they're satisfied.
Sellers who think the transaction is over after an item has been shipped are SADLY mistaken and they will get ran out of Ebay after dealing with lying buyers for a while.

I'm both a buyer and seller but I've had more problems with buyers than sellers because after the changes, they KNOW they can demand a bunch of bullshit and get away with it since you can't leave feedback to let the rest of the sellers on ebay know they're pieces of crap.

Honestly.
I guess I should quit selling, become a buyer and just randomly leave negative feedback for every transaction, threaten the seller to pay to refund my shipping because the 'color was off' from the photo or the 'measurements were off' from a shirt or it arrived too late, etc, etc, etc.
That's what they're dealing with on Ebay right now. Where the buyer is conceited and feels like they have all the power.
Power to open up unscrupulous paypal disputes, to make irrational demands, etc.

So let it be well understood that shitty people in general make Ebay a hellish experience...not just shitty buyers or sellers. (mostly buyers, fyi)

guiniune my arse some

guiniune my arse some sellers maybe although some just want to rob buyers just as much as the buyers so by falsyfing there items for a quick sale why if they are guiniune sellers tell me that then
ebays rules go against thereself thats why buyers have the upperhand thats not the buyers problem is it r u puzzled yet.

here are not enough sellers...

there are not enough sellers here, because mostly buyers are frightened about unfair Ebay policy and showing their concern. Sellers feeling themselves very comfortable and more protected, than buyers, and that allows sellers to be nasty, non-cooperative and appressing.

When you learn to read,

When you learn to read, write and think, people will take you seriously. You are exactly the type of buyer that can make selling on eBay such a pain in the ass at times. I frequently receive illiterate, rambling, nonsensical emails from buyers who, although clearly too stupid to walk and chew gum at the same time, have somehow been allowed to sit in front of a computer and use a credit card.

Sellers do not set out to be 'nasty, non-cooperative and apressing' (sic) - it's just that people like you sometimes make them seem that way.

Third party shipping insurance for full refund.

There are many services that provide third party insurance for shipping. Why not make insurance which cost 30 cent per each $100 and insure an item including shipping costs? In this way buyer will get full refund and seller will not loose money.

not everyone lives in the

not everyone lives in the USA. I.e. from Canada, tracking is $$$$$$$$$

Fix some eBay feedback problems

I just got my first negative feedback.
I still cannot tell what the buyer was pissed at. I did everything right. Everything is stated in the auction page. But he didn't like the shipping charges. But he paid for them.
Do you still sell on ebay? If so is business as brisk?
Thanks

You seem unable to

You seem unable to understand how commercially IMPORTANT feedback is to a seller and how relatively UNIMPORTANT it is to a buyer.

I am a seller, and many potential buyers will decide whether or not to buy from me depending on the number of negatives I have. Thus a negative from a buyer of a $5 item who didn't read the listing, or thought their package should arrive from halfway around the world in 2 days, can potentially cost me an enormous amount of money in lost sales.

For that reason there is no way I am going to respond with a cheery 'Great Ebayer, best in the world, ra ra ra lick lick lick A1+++' type comment immediately after receiving their little pittance. I want them to THINK before they leave ill-judged feedback, damage my reputation and cost me sales for no valid reason. Right now the threat of retaliatory negative feedback is the only deterrent to this kind of nutbag buyer. If they don't leave feedback I don't care - there are plenty of normal, intelligent, reasonable people who will.

For a buyer on the other hand, negative feedback is not usually a great problem, and it certainly doesn't have any adverse financial consequences for the buyer. As a seller I don't normally check a bidder's detailed feedback anyway because there are only so many hours in the day. Even if I did a small percentage of negatives would not necessarily put me off.

Personally I think the feedback system could be improved by allowing separate feedback for Payment Issues, Product Issues and possibly Communication Issues. There is no magic answer though, and I think a lot of buyers get much too worked up about it. For anyone who wants to right the world's wrongs I would suggest poverty and war as more worthwhile issues than trivial arguments over eBay's feedback system.

You said that feedback for a

You said that feedback for a buyer means nothing, yet you say your only recourse is the threat of negative feedback. If it means nothing to them, then go ahead and give them positive. I am much more willing to leave a positive for someone who recognized that I am a good ebayer, than to leave a positive for someone who is holding my positive ransom. I am a seller and a buyer on the same account. So my feedback rating does mean something to me. If you were really worried about it you could check the previous feedback scores to see how the buyer has left in the past. Then based on past feedback decide if that buyer doesn't warrant leaving a positive up front. Just my $.02.

Why do you feel they need to give you positive feedback first?

This seems to be the biggest arguement from all the buyers I read on this blog...you incorrectly assume this is the eBay policy? Perhaps you should educate yourself and READ the policy and you'll find that it clearly indicates that NEITHER is to give feedback for the other, that it is between the two who wants to. So to keep stating that you get upset that you aren't being given positive feedback for simply paying for an item so that you can hold the cards for your own bashing negative feedback when you don't get your way is another example of the problem created by buyers like yourself. I'll say again, are you telling me that after you pay, there is NO policy you can break that would be deserved of negative feedback including not contacting a seller before leaving feedback???

The reality is, all of you keep harping about retaliatory feedback...what is this vile need to leave negative feedback in the first place? Isn't THAT out of hatred also? Who cares? If you aren't happy with a deal, why not just send an item back, get your money back and move on. Why this aggressive need to leave negative feedback for someone? I've carried 100% feedback for over 1000 transaction under 10 different names - all at one time or another have then had someone leave a negative or something stupid and most never bothered to email me beforehand. Your ignorance views this as 'retaliatory'. It isn't retaliation to point out that you left poor feedback without contacting me as a seller and giving me ANY opportunity to resolve an issue, yet you people do it again and again and whine RETALIATORY FEEDBACK...grow up and act like an adult. Nobody cares to hear that constant whining.

The fact is, the same retaliatory feedback you whine about has the exact same nature as the negative feedback you want to leave - you want to bash someone's reputation while saving your own no matter if you are right or wrong. That's a shame that we even use feedback to start with!

Jim Sharp's comment is valid. Why the hell should anyone get revenge neg feedback when they've paid in full directly after the auction.
If the goods are faulty or not as described then it's the seller who should be penalised NOT the innocent buyer! All this revenge feedback business needs to get sorted.

In the past I've not left any neg feedback as I'm afraid of revenge feedback that'll paint me as a bad trading partner... the dodgy seller ends up with getting away with it just to rip someone else off.
Get a grip ebay and do something about it..you make enough money from it!!

Fair comment... but you are

Fair comment... but you are not trying to scam the seller. But the seller doesn't know that Eddie... Believe me, if you had as many Paypal reversals as me, you would only give feedback after receipt. You may be honest... but there are thousands out there who aren't! Sad, but true. I ain't a charity who is going to leave himself open to fraud. If these lowlife scum want free condoms.. go to family plannning... not me!!!

So glad someone is pointing out how sellers also can get hurt...

When I sold actively on eBay - not as a powerseller, but in the hundreds every year - I started by posting feedback immediately after payment.

Then I got burned by a customer who reported that the item was fine (it was a camera), and two weeks later, claimed it was now broken. He shipped the camera back, with partially developed film inside. I had not included film, so it was clear that he had broken it while on vacation - a vacation, I remembered belatedly, he had mentioned taking in his initial emails. Buyer's remorse is very real on eBay. He then began making threats that if I didn't send a full refund and all the shipping costs, he would neg me. Then he wanted more money. I took the neg (after four years, still the only one I have). A friend also shipped out a computer part and got a neg when the customer installed it improperly. Unfortunately, while she apologized and added an updated comment, with so few (20) sales on his account, the neg killed his selling account.

The next major screwing I got was from a buyer who failed to make good on a bad payment (check). They left me neutral feedback, and managed to keep both the item and payment.

What I learned - and observed on the eBay seller boards - is that there are potentially bad people on both sides. (Search for the story of the "fire liar" if you don't believe me, the harrowing saga of a one-woman amateur fire department...fire-liar.info is still archived, along with some of the "incendiary" eBay discussions, over at http://web.archive.org)

And if you are a seller, you want to wait until the transaction is finished and the person is satisfied. Nine and a half times out of ten, the other shoe will never drop, but it's your business.

Everyone knows someone who overreacts at first, but who can be calmed down. Assume that at least one of your buyers is like that, and exercise caution. That may mean getting feedback from them before posting your own, but often, if I just got a happy note that all was well, I left feedback then. Still a bit of a risk, but I'd rather take that one, than just thank someone for their payment - when their payment may still bounce, may not cover enough, or when they provide me with a non-usable shipping address. Most sellers give feedback for the entire transaction - warts and all - not just the money. You forget that sellers get all sorts of weird behavior - from someone wanting to return a movie for a refund because they didn't like the ending, to a person angry because Priority Mail took five days to arrive during the holidays, to someone not bothering to read the description and blaming you for their mistake.

I don't expect feedback and prefer now to leave it in one big clump. And you know, that's my right - just as it's someone else's right to leave bland, negative, even unfair feedback.

Rather than blaming sellers for being mean, or accusing them of being evil people for not leaving feedback immediately, remember that you can always use http://toolhaus.org to see what their feedback style is first - before buying. If you don't think you like the person on the other side, by all means, don't do business with them!

Do they blast people with vindictive, nasty comments?
Do they leave any feedback? (This is valid. Feedback is completely voluntary.) If you want feedback, you may not want to buy from someone who doesn't leave any - or maybe you just don't care as long as the product and service are both good.
Are they polite when having an issue with a customer?
If they've left negatives for customers, are they mostly for non paying bidders (NPBs), and written in a factual, non emotional manner? (This operates as fair warning to other users, buyers and sellers alike).

Nobody doubts

That both parties be problems in a transaction. The main concern is how to avoid feedback that is left, not because of a flaw with what the other party did in the transaction, but in response only to the feedback. The answer will not be perfect. Some buyers can indeed become assholes long after the fact, but this is a minor exception, I think.

Note that whatever system you develop, customers will come to understand what the scores really mean. Today on eBay, everybody knows 97% positive feedback on a lot of transactions means a below average seller, even though it sounds extremely positive.

In fact, one thought might be for eBay, instead of reporting hard feedback scores as the main score, report the _percentile_ ranking of the feedback score for people with a similar number of transactions.

Of course, they might find that would scare more people away. Would you buy from a 50th percentile seller? That's roughly an average one, but it sounds scary.

Jim Sharp's comment not valid...

Again, read my previous writings...your entire argument stems from the assumption that the seller is automatically the guility party. That kind of takes away the basics of our constitution now doesn't it? If you leave negative feedback and haven't bothered to contact the seller to give them the opportunity to fix the problem you're complaining of, then you are breaking eBay policy. Most would be willing to fix issues. Just because you aren't happy doesn't mean they are wrong. Many items in YOUR MIND may seem 'not as described' or 'faulty' when in fact many of the times that concept is in the mind of the ignorant buyer and instead of trying to resolve the issue like an adult, they go straight to negative feedback. Try to avoid ignorance and single-minded thinking here....if you're all for the new policy, don't complain when your'e paying more money for your items on eBay in the near future - that thinking is exactly why great sellers like me are leaving and you'll pay more to who is left to raise their prices and take in that money - larger sellers who could care less to help you and don't mind the negative feedbacks as opposed to smaller, more personal sellers like myself.

I got a negative feedback once for non-receipt for an item sent media mail...THREE DAYS after the guy paid for it and it read -SCAMMER! ITEM NOT SENT! BEWARE! - At the time I had 1400 positive feedbacks and ZERO NEGATIVES...the guy paid right away - your logic says I should have given this guy positive feedback....is that stinking right? Come on now, let's have at least a LOGIC opinion if you're going to waste your time and post them in public.

Another idea however would

Another idea however would be double-blind feedback. Thiat is to say that feedback is not revealed until both parties have entered it, or if only one party enters it, after the feedback period has expired.

Great & this will make fraud very easy. wouldn't you like to see 35 negs the day their given for a scammer? Or would you rather wait the 20-30 days before they post? how many more people would be scammed in the time period?

Feedback is a rating on the entire transaction, not the JUST speed of shipment or paymen 7 NOT a thank yout. I leave feedback when I want too & don't get care when or if I get it back.

I Want the item I paid for Or the money for the item I sold...feedback doesn't matter when it's left.

Most of these comments seem

Most of these comments seem to be comming from ebay buyers. Well, I am a seller and a buyer and the problem is even worse for me. I bought an item and got it two weeks later with bad excuses from the seller. I left positve feedback for him but said that I wouldn't do business with him again. Well, he left me a negative feedback in return. I am a seller also, so this ruined my %100 feedback rating which seems more important for sellers than just buyers. I think ebay should have two feedback ratings, one from sellers and one from buyers. That way buyers would know that all other buyers were happy and just retalitory sellers were leaving bad feedback.

open an ebay account just

open an ebay account just for buying.

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