A lot to sum up

Submitted by brad on Fri, 2009-02-13 22:18

Had to re-watch a bit, but here's a summary of things we learn:

  • On Kobol, "organic memory transfer" (technobabble) is developed. They do not have FTL drives at this point.
  • A 13th tribe of artificial beings is developed, and leaves to form a colony.
  • 13th tribe builds "Temple of Hopes" on Algae planet. Dated 3,000 years ago by Ellen, 4,000 years ago by Tyrol's carbon dating.
  • Book of Pythia must be written much later than 3,600 years ago. The "exile and rebirth of the human race" in it is harder to place.
  • 13th tribe heads on to its planet via slower-than-light, and calls it "Earth." That planet must be quite close.
  • On the planet they breed and lose the "organic memory transfer." (Doesn't seem likely to me to lose something that valuable.)
  • The Five are born, presumably within one generation of 2,000 years ago. Ellen has a father named John.
  • The Five, working at a research lab, recreate the download tech, and prepare a ship to resurrect them.
  • They get warnings of impending battle. They get visions only they see of figures; Tory sees a woman, Anders a man -- quite possibly "virtual beings" like head Six. Galen thinks he has a chip in his head. The rest is unclear. They prep their tech.
  • 2,000 years ago, their world is nuked, by who is not known. Around this time, the 12 tribes are fleeing Kobol. Unknown if 12 tribes have FTL yet.
  • When they wake up, they decide to travel to find the 12 tribes (whom they can't know have left for 12 colonies) and warn them of the dangers
  • They travel to the Algae planet via STL (but at a good fraction of the speed of light,) and change the Temple of Hopes to show their faces.
  • They travel, presumably to Kobol, and find where the 12 tribes have gone.
  • They travel to the 12 colonies, and arrive during the first Cylon war.
  • Metal Cylons are experimenting with hybrids. They have also developed a monotheist religion.
  • They cut a deal with the metal Cylons, stop the war and we'll give you biological bodies.
  • They agree. First they create John Cavil, #1. John is raised like a child, they play with him on a beach somewhere, but then he helps them create 7 others.
  • The five establish a place called "The Colony." John knows of it, the others don't. The Five's equipment is there. (Possibly just reference to 13th colony?)
  • John doesn't like his brother #7, Daniel. He interferes with his duplication process, killing him for good, it appears.
  • John kills the final five by suffocation. He interferes with their download, releasing copies of them in the colonies one by one, with memories blocked. Saul is first, about 30 years before the 2nd war. He hopes this will teach them how bad being human is.
  • John programs the other six Cylons to largely forget the Final Five and avoid thinking about them.
  • The 7 Cylons lead a war on humanity. John may have had a hand in assuring the Final Five live through it, giving them a "front row seat to a holocaust."
  • John is fully aware of who they are. He takes out Saul's eye, has sex with Ellen, aware of it all.
  • Boomer learns just after leaving New Caprica. Presumably helps her vote against her kind.
  • Boomer somehow knows where the fleet is, and flies Ellen to it.

Now some big questions and revelations this opens up...

  • Without FTL, all the systems have to be very close, but the Ionian Nebula is 13,000 ly away from all of them. So why is it the activation point for the memories of the Final Five? Is this Cavil's doing?
  • What about other events there -- fleet power loss, Starbuck's return?
  • What is the point of a "signpost" that is 13,000 ly away from which you now return another 13,000 ly to get back where you came?
  • Cavil picked the location of the ambush at Jupiter. Does he know about real Earth? Even Ellen does not appear to know about it. Though at one point Anders calls the 13th colony "the planet" suggesting he knows more.
  • When did FTL get developed? On Kobol, or on the colonies?
  • Cavil said "Centaurians" while others said "Centurions." Is this just a different pronunciation, or a suggestion a faction is from Alpha Centauri.
  • Is there another string puller besides Cavil? It does seem so, probably the "one true god" who has been talking in Baltar's head.
  • One interesting suggestion that has been made -- the hidden string puller and possibly one true god is somehow derived from Daniel, Ellen's "favourite son." Very Mormon, too. Is Daniel corporeal? Starbuck seemed to recognize the name.
  • Daniel, we are told, can't come back, unlike #3 who is just boxed. But surely we see more of this.
  • How is it that Ellen and Saul can raise Cavil from a boy, play with him on the beach, and then just 40 years later he looks that old? Ok, he could alter his appearance but he seems to hate his body.
  • Also note that John, though just 10 years old, had by that time killed the five, and reintroduced Saul and Ellen into the colonies without memories.
  • Does Ellen have backup resurrection equipment? She doesn't seem too worried for somebody who devoted a lot to bringing that stuff back.
  • Why don't any of the 7 Cylons remember being metal? (Or the events of Caprica, in particular.)
  • I have to say I'm disappointed with the idea that the five were given invented lives by Cavil. I had hoped their incarnation was their own idea.
  • Speaking of this, why was Tyrol given memories of a fake childhood learning about the Temple of Five? Or did he somehow invent that?
  • How do the colonials (not just Tyrol) know about the "Temple of Five" when it wasn't taken over by them until after the colonials left Kobol for the colonies?
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Comments

Anonymous

Sat, 2009-02-14 00:14

A couple of potentially interrelated things.

1) On the loss of "organic memory transfer" due to an ability to reproduce, this could signal that the 13th colony recognizes that particular technology, and maybe most technology, as "evil". Over time, that sense of "evil" disappears, and the tech is re-discovered.

2) Cavil seems to be in a loop. And it is possible that all cylons are exactly what they are and nothing more. Their "learned experiences" are destroyed at some point, only to be learned again at a later point. Cavil wipes out the memories of the five, the five have to relearn what they lost. At some point, Cavil loses, he dies and can not resurrect. Technology becomes "evil". Cavil and the tech is forgotten, mythologized. The cycle starts all over again. The tech is rebuilt. Eventually, Cavil is reborn.

Alvin

Sat, 2009-02-14 01:37

I don't think they meant Cavil was a boy it literally. I think it's more figurative. I think Cavil always appeared as an older man, hence the reference to being modeled after her father (kind of makes their dealings on New Caprica a bit creepy, doesn't it?).

Shaggy123

Sat, 2009-02-14 05:43

Daniel is Karas father, it explains that she could be resurrected because she is half cylon.
Im guessing the original Daniel escaped to the colonies, but had 2 leave or died early on in starbucks life. If he did leave maybe he was the one who re-introduced Kara to the fleet at the nebula, and activated the 5. Perhaps this is his plan to stop #1 John Cavil!

Alvin

Sat, 2009-02-14 07:20

Yes, a cylon as Kara's father has been my theory for a long time. I had always thought of him as a leobon (explaining his interest in her, though maybe he didn't even know), more recently i've thought one of the final five (Tigh? Or, in a bit of creepy irony, Anders?).

Regarding the 'missing model' Daniel, I wouldn't be shocked if it's a character we've never seen before or never referenced before. Could he be virtual 6/virtual baltar? Perhaps the only way he managed to survive is as raw programming? Lots of possibilities spring to mind with this new revelation.

Though i'm happy to say I was right about their being 13 cylon models after all.

Lisa

Sun, 2009-02-15 07:42

I'm still processing "No Exit" and have only watched it once so far. I'd like to watch it again before forming any kind of significant opinion, but here are a couple things at the top of my mind:

* RE: Brian using the term "John Cavil." The name Cavil always seemed like a last name to me, so that just makes sense and it's what I started doing as soon as Ellen started calling him John. Interestingly, the word "cavil" means "to raise trivial objections." I also have been wondering if Cavil was Ellen's maiden name if she created him in her father's image.

* It's pretty frakking awesome that (1) the metal toasters came up with monotheism, (2) the Colonials are polytheistic, but (3) the writers are more likely going for a Gnostic Dualism with "mother" and "father" creators in Ellen and Saul despite that (4) Ellen's philosophical discussion with Cavil sounded very Catholic.

* RE: the missing Daniel Number 7. Some connection to Daniel Graystone just seems too obvious, but why would the writers deliberately use that name twice if there's no connection?

* Freud would have a field day with Cavil raping his "mother" and Six procreating with her "father." How mean is it to create an artificial life form and give him a 70 year old body? Even if Ellen wanted to bring back her father in some way, why bring him back at that age?

* From Anders' perspective not only did the other Four glow, but so did Starbuck.

* The Four saw head characters just like Baltar. What does this mean for Baltar?

Lisa

Sun, 2009-02-15 07:53

Forgot one more thing -- now I'm *really* wondering what the Lords of Kobol are if they're not Cylon. A lot has yet to be revealed, but Anders didn't have anything at all to say about them.

Alvin

Sun, 2009-02-15 08:50

*Centurions did not develop monotheism on their own, me-thinks. If you recall the synopsis of 'Caprica' it involves a radical religious group who believes in one god. It is likely this faction that invents and programs the Centurions. If Daniel Graystone was the inventor (or one of) than he is probably a hero or at least historical figure to the Centurions, and the F5 may have paid homage to him by naming 7 Daniel.

*Not only did Cavil sleep with his mother, but he is modeled after her father. All new kinds of creepy, right there.

*I'm not sure if everyone glowing meant anything, at first my reaction was 'he's passing out.' The background also was glowing. That remains to be seen, I guess.

*Head characters might mean Baltar is a cylon, or it could simply mean that whoever is manipulating events has the ability to project themselves to ANY ONE, human or cylon. Or maybe there's chips in their heads. If you listen, while the doc is arguing with Kara, Sam shouts 'Galen, you thought you had a chip in your head.'

*With regards to the Lords of Kobol-- could they be us? Could extinct humans from our Earth be manipulating events in our far, distant future? I don't think they'd introduce us to an alien race or real gods at this point in the story. It has to be someone or something familiar to the audience. Nothing more familiar than ourselves. Remember, our Earth DOES exist in BSG-- they made a point to show North America, after all. Does our Earth in BSG share our history, is the question.

Anonymous

Sat, 2009-02-14 08:51

I'm wondering if the Colonials, Kobol, everything in the show is going to be explained how they relate to us.

Anonymous

Sat, 2009-02-14 09:22

Hoping someone can explain to me:

*What/who caused the nuclear war on earth?

*What was the surgical procedure Ellen avoided by escaping?

*When a skin job is reborn, what age are they reborn at? Do they age? In Saul's memories of the holocaust on earth, he looks the same as he does now...how is this possible, since he was placed as a "human" on Caprica 30 years ago and must have looked must younger when he befriended Adamma? When Ellen was reborn, she was not younger looking?

Alvin

Sat, 2009-02-14 09:34

Cavil says he killed the 5 and resurrected them amongst the colonies (effectively 'creating' the characters we know with false memories), and this was AFTER the five ended the first cylon war with their agreement with the centurions. But how, then, did Saul Tigh fight in the first war? The timelines don't add up.

Alvin

Sat, 2009-02-14 09:45

According to the wiki page on Tigh, he didn't meet Adama until AFTER the war, so I guess all of his war memories were false. For some reason i'd thought that he and Adama knew each other during the war. Myyyy mistake.

Anonymous

Sun, 2009-02-15 18:51

I got the impression that Adama met Tigh *during* the war. Bad writing or retcon?

Anonymous

Mon, 2009-02-23 22:10

Neither, it was always the case that they met years later. Note that Adama's not a young man in those flashbacks. They were on a freighter.

Lisa

Tue, 2009-02-24 08:27

Battlestar Wiki actually says Tigh and Adama met on that commercial freighter 20 years after the First Cylon War. The First Cylon War happened about 40 years before the Fall of the 12 Colonies, so I figure Saul was inserted into the fleet about 20 years prior to the Fall of the 12 Colonies.

zach

Tue, 2009-02-24 08:38

But when Tigh admits he's a Cylon, doesn't Adama say to him "I've known you for 30 years"?
Mind you, I haven't checked, I am saying this from memory, so I could be wrong. Or Battelstar Wiki is.

Lisa

Tue, 2009-02-24 09:10

He might have, I'd have to re-watch it. In that case, it's possible someone wasn't paying close enough attention to the storyline or perhaps Adama was rounding up. They may have know each other for 20+ years, the show hasn't been that specific.

Anonymous

Tue, 2009-02-24 09:19

I gotta think it merely speech. When talking about my long time friends I don't give the length of time to the day that I have known them, I just choose a number that is close. "I have known Charlie for 15 years." Well, the truth is it is more like 17, but 15 sounds better. I am sure it will turn to 20 before it hits 20. It is just the way people talk.

brad

Tue, 2009-02-24 13:58

Since it has been 3 years or so on the run, if you make it 25 plus 3, that works out. The wiki is just quoting some other show source that was probably just a handwave number.

Strictly, the later you put it the better, now that we know the memories are fake. Because just 10 years (from end of Cylon war to When Saul met Bill) is a fairly short timeframe to raise the 8 Cylons as children, have them mature etc.

Anonymous

Tue, 2009-02-24 14:04

Children doesn't necessarily mean baby -> old age. It could mean mentally. Physically John could have been born the same age and look he has now, but mentally be a child. I think it must be noted that Ellen continues to consider them all her children. I would contend that without proof the Eight constructs were ever babies, the only logical explanation for why they don't have clones that age is because they were created in the same image they have now. This allows time to be a non-factor. I am personally on the fence about whether I believe this myself, but I can't say I trust the use of the word child with the physical.

Anonymous

Mon, 2009-02-16 08:39

When they got to Earth didn’t they discover different model centurions?

I presume the nuclear war on Earth was between the human cylons and the centurions.

Did the humans cylons create the centurions on Earth or were the centurions created on Kobol and part of the 13th tribe exodus?

I have to admit I am a little confused about this point too.

zach

Sat, 2009-02-14 10:04

On the Cinder planet we learned that Sam had been a musician who performed/wrote "All Along the Watchtower" for the woman he loved.
It is the same planet where Ellen died, telling Saul they would be reborn.
It is the same planet Cylons called Earth. The home of the 13th tribe.

Now we learn that Sam and the other Four were scientists who re-invented the resurrection technology.
Sam couldn't have been a scientist and a famous musician at the same time.

So he can't be talking about the same planet.
Does that bring us back to two Earths again?

And another thing - Sam was a famous pyramid player on Caprica, so he can't have been planted there (by Cavil) as a grown up. He must have been born there, because as a famous player he would have been in the public eye and everything about him (and his childhood, the school he went to, his friends, his family..) would have been known to the press and his fans.

Anonymous

Sat, 2009-02-14 10:17

As for your first point, he may not have been a Bob Dylan. He may not even have been famous, nor even professional. But even if he was, there are numerous celebrities that are experts in various fields. For instance, there is a metal group (I think it's Agoraphobic Nosebleed), who's lead guitarist is also a physicist.

Lisa

Sun, 2009-02-15 08:04

Queen lead guitarist Brian May is also an astrophysicist.

Anonymous

Sun, 2009-02-15 18:56

Brian May presented an edition of The Sky at Night.

He did it rather well.

Dustin

Sat, 2009-02-14 10:29

An interview with Michael Trucco I heard on a podcast revealed that they were going to show him playing the song in a living room for the other four. Meaning music was more likely just a hobby.

brad

Sat, 2009-02-14 14:34

Yes, that he was a musician who could write a song doesn't require him to be a rock star.

However, he was a star athlete, and I think that's a bit of a goof. A star athlete, but nobody remembers ever paying with him as a kid? But I guess there are ways to retcon faking it.

Mostly I just don't like this story. Their personalities are now fake. I wanted their personalities to be genuine, part of a deliberate decision to stay more human by growing up human, not a strange plot to make them hate being human by living with a fake personality.

Alvin

Sat, 2009-02-14 15:16

I think a lot of current BSG detractors (the faction that previously enjoyed the show, that is) are not enjoying it mostly because the show took too long to reveal these answers. They teased us for so long that the answers in our own minds became so appealing that anything else became disappointing.

There are times I feel as you do, that these answers are unsatisfying, but i've come to realize that it's not the answers that disappoint me, but the way they've been revealed. I truly feel that the writers strike completely destroyed the pacing they had developed. It forced them to write a possible mid-season ending, one that would satisfy people as a series finale, but leave it open enough that they could write their intended ending should the strike be resolved, which it was.

You'll notice in 'Sometimes a Great Notion' in the conversation where they're analyzing the bones, that Adama posits 'so the humans on earth invented Cylons, who rose up and destroyed them.' If the strike had not been resolved, i'm certain the conversation would have ended there. But they were allowed to do more episodes, so they added Baltar saying 'That's what we thought at first...' adding more to the mystery, more to be revealed. I also believe that in the pre-strike-resolution, 'last-episode' version of SaGN, Starbuck would have been the 5th cylon.

My point is that the pacing and tension has all along been what made this show so appealing, not the details of the story itself. When the strike hit, the writers were thrown a curveball and had to do things for reasons other than crafting the best possible story they could. Suddenly, the freedom that Sci-fi had given them was all but negated, as industry antics were dictating their writing decisions. A story like this you can't just slow down or speed up the pacing-- they had so switch it up on the fly all season long, which has been very frustrating. Remember, this happened to LOST also, and a lot of fans complained about the first half of the post-strike season. The difference here is that the strike interrupted the final, crucial mystery-revealing season.

I would give good money to see what this season would have been like without the strike.

Anonymous

Sat, 2009-02-14 15:53

"Terminator: The Sarah Connor Chronicles" got screwed by the writers strike and later studio decisions. It's taking time to rebuild the initial attraction and bring the narrative back to its original story arc form. So, I understand that but the problem I have with BSG is about the on and off-screen fumbling and misselling. There's been some bad decisions and comment by the producers that can't be excused by the writers strike or studio.

I get fed with this shit when I see politicians and vested interests screw over the public, and it's no different when it's writers and studios knocking heads. I can take a rounded view so don't get too sucked in to just hating them for the sake of hating them, but you can't allow them to slide off the hook either. They'll happily dismiss it as "just a show" like some people dismiss politics as "just politics" but they're the first to whine if the hard cash they'd banked from this deal evaporated from their bank accounts.

So, when did BSG become Hustle, huh?

Alvin

Sat, 2009-02-14 17:00

Personally, I don't listen to stuff from the writers, interviews or podcasts. I've heard some of it second hand (mostly here), but if it's not in the episodes, I don't put much stock into it. It's fun to listen to every now and again, but I try to just watch the shows and focus on the on-screen story.

I hate to say it, but maybe if everyone had ignored the off-screen, behind the scenes comments, they'd be enjoying it more.

Alvin

Tue, 2009-02-24 18:08

It just dawned on me, Brad... Here's a what-if:

In the pre-strike era, they may have intended for the 'cylon Earth' to be our Earth. But when they were forced to write a mid-season finale, they had to leave two options. If the series had ended in 'Revelations' then the Cylon Earth would have been us. Because once they'd found EARTH, the series is over. Because the show continued, they had to re-write it so that Cylon Earth was just another planet.

brad

Tue, 2009-02-24 18:47

I mean I used to read it the other way around. I think Moore must have planned out the general (full season) finale, which may or may not include a 2nd real Earth. With the threat of ending the series with the strike, he would have said, "OK, we'll end with the visit to the colony and declare it's Earth." It would have been a poor ending that left a lot of loose ends (head characters, Starbuck, Hera, you name it) but it would sort of work.

This also explains why no Earth stars, no Earth continents on the 13th colony.

However, if they really don't plan another Earth (though they plan some promised land) who knows what the goal was.

Alvin

Tue, 2009-02-24 20:18

But what if they didn't want to reach Earth until the last episode? With the strike looming, they needed to find it mid-season, just in case. But if they found Earth, how do you fill 10 more episodes if the strike is resolved? Well, you come back the next episode and say 'oh it's Earth, just not ours'. Viola.

Anonymous

Sat, 2009-02-14 15:27

The retcon has kicked up how the Final Five's journey was powered by WTF drives and the drama is only carried by being so brass necked. It's a bit of a road crash and shows how producers may make bad judgements under pressure. I much prefer your fictional backstory to what's unfolding now.

The Answer

Tue, 2009-02-24 17:37

The F5 story pretty much non-sense in my opinion.

A Civilization, Earth Cylons (to be more precised F5) who could reinvent memory-transfer again,

could not invent the FTL drives so that they have travelled the universe for 2000 frakking years !!!

When I first thought this fact... laughed like hell... :D

As I said, F5 became a bunch of machines overrated machines that far from being smart,

even puppets of one of their children (1s) for 40 years.

Alvin

Tue, 2009-02-24 17:50

How can you proclaim a story nonsense when it isn't even over? We only learned this stuff 2 episodes ago. There's clearly a LOT more going on than what they revealed in 'No Exit.' There may be more to their technology than they've said at this point.

Yet another person judging the story before we know everything. I thought there'd be a difference between the masses and those who watched BSG. I always thought of folks who watched BSG as being 'better than the average fan', maybe because it's 'better than the average tv show.' I thought fans of BSG would be smarter than to pre-judge.

Anonymous

Tue, 2009-02-24 17:52

Not to mention there are obviously things that the F5 don't even know.

Lisa

Tue, 2009-02-24 19:00

Only Anders and Ellen really know anything. The other three have only had glimpses of their previous lives. Even Anders injury means his recall is scattered. There are all sorts of gaps in knowledge of their previous lives.

brad

Tue, 2009-02-24 18:45

They didn't invent the downloading, they just rebuilt it. Presumably their brains could always do it, you just had to turn it on, and build/rebuild the tanks.

FTL on the other hand, Anders said they never had. There is no sign that in this life they were capable of breakthrough physics.

Anonymous

Sat, 2009-02-14 16:11

Well thank God you're not a writer.

zach

Sat, 2009-02-14 10:46

That makes sense.

Dustin

Sat, 2009-02-14 15:11

does anyone else have the following approach to analysis: if nothing is said to contradict it, I'll make something up to fill in the blanks?

Example:

The distance the FF traveled as opposed to the distance the fleet has traveled from the colonies- maybe some of the Cylons had already begun their exploration of local space and had traveled thousands of light years when they met the FF and took them back to local space. So they traveled 2000 light years and the Cylons met them and took them back with their FTL. I'll just assume that happened until it's contradicted.

BTW Brad- so far you're only one of two to call One "John Cavil." The other person is RDM in his podcast. I think your blog entry went up first. Everyone else on the web calls him either "John" or "Cavil."

But one more thing- in regards to the magical box Leoben used to get Roslin's signal through to the fleet, RDM kind of laughed at it and said (paraphrasing)"If you're asking technical questions, then you're not really involved in the show." So while that probably doesn't apply to the above post, it does kind of bode ill for those of us who try to use science to figure out the show.

Anonymous

Sat, 2009-02-14 15:39

The big issue of the WTF drive and Ron dismissing analysis is what you'd call a con. He's the guy who pimped the show as "naturalistic science fiction" and is slapping down people who awkwardly remind him of that. I'm a bit pissed about the immersion bubble bursting and pulling the caveat emptor line is the sort of abuse you wouldn't allow a politician to pull. It's becoming "forget the facts, run with the passion." Uh, no. So less of the Jim Jones routine, okay Ron?

Anonymous

Sat, 2009-02-14 16:24

Immersion bubble? Is that the new buzz phrase? Do you even know what that means?

Let's face it, a show this complex was never going to please every viewer. But can't we at least wait until the show is over, and we know everything, before we slam the show and those who created it into the ground? BSG fans are starting to sound a lot like trek fans-- overly critical whiners. And even if the ending is not as good as you would have desired or envisioned, it doesn't take away any of the enjoyment you got out of watching the previous seasons. No show is ever going to be perfect.

Sit back and enjoy it for what it is, instead of trashing it for not being exactly what you want it to be.

Anonymous

Sat, 2009-02-14 18:05

Actually, yes. I'm a game developer. Plus, I've advocated people take a mature approach. So, you can knock off the anonymous arguing just because I'm not saying what you want to hear. I don't need it and Brad doesn't need his blog filling up with it.

Anonymous

Sat, 2009-02-14 20:26

I'm not trying to argue with you. I just see an overwhelming sentiment of anger (from a lot of folks) towards the writers and producers of the show for lying or contradicting themselves or as brad put it 'frakking up the story'. As long as you advocate a mature approach (and hey, there's no way I could have known you did, as you're also using an 'anonymous' moniker), than I can respect that. It is, however, hard for me to understand someone trashing a show they've professed to love just moments before it ends, before they even know the full story. Once it ends, by all means, they should give their honest opinion.

I'm just trying to preach patience to some of the more angry and frustrated viewers. Sorry if it came out poorly.

And since you DO know what 'immersion bubble' means, can you explain it to me? I googled it and only came up with...THIS SITE! From context i'd imagine it means the, i don't know how to put it... illusion of reality or the viewer's feeling of immersion in the story? Am i close?

Anonymous

Sat, 2009-02-14 23:29

Immersion is being immersed in the experience. When something happens that disrupts the experience it can knock you out of that and plonk you back in the real world. It might be, say, something that's absurd or emotionally dull. This includes "bubbles" with their own rulesets and the "bubbles" that expand out fom that such as ongoing perception and community discussion. It's a big subject and that's just touching on it but it's good enough for a small comment.

Most things have pluses and minuses to them. You can like something about something but it doesn't mean you swallow the whole deal. There's things I like about BSG and things I don't like. The producers might peddle it as "The best show on television" but I'm much more circumspect about that now. It may have been and I was happy to agree with that at one point but the narrative issues and misselling have made me think that's just a vanity now.

Discussion is always difficult as people can miss earlier comment and have their own perceptions to deal with. I agree, posting anonymously doesn't help but I've seen that happen even when I have posted with an identifiable name. Plus, you've got some folks who just want to "win" an argument and talk people down. That can confuse the position you're trying to explain and turn adversarial bullshit into "fact".

Dustin

Sat, 2009-02-14 15:58

The naturalistic science fiction essay spends less time on science than anything else. The naturalism seems to refer mostly to characters, tone, visuals, and near the end, three aspects of science, one of which he changed his mind about(they were originally not going to have sound in space):

http://en.battlestarwiki.org/wiki/Naturalistic_science_fiction

"Our goal is nothing less than the reinvention of the science fiction television series. We take as a given the idea that the traditional space opera, with its stock characters, techno-double-talk, bumpy-headed aliens, thespian histrionics, and empty heroics has run its course and a new approach is required. That approach is to introduce realism into what has heretofore been an aggressively unrealistic genre."

The "Techno double-talk" seems to refer to the technobabble that permeated Star Trek and which Moore was probably tired of- witness the two moments in the mini that were obvious jabs at Trek technobabble.

Naturalistic isn't the same as realistic.

Anonymous

Sat, 2009-02-14 18:11

I hear what you're saying but naturalistic SF strikes me as being a quesion of balance between science and drama. Throwing the science out of the window and embracing the drama is just redefining terms on the fly. It's lurching from one extreme to the other just because they executed poorly.

Ron set up expectations and pimped them in his podcasts. That's not an issue that can be ducked. I'm fine if he acknowledges that and admits he frakked up but sliding into denial and pretending it never happened just irritates the hell out of me. He needs to learn from this and not pull strokes like this again.

JrzRob

Sat, 2009-02-14 18:35

The show is not even over yet! People are arguing over how stuff is being put together and explained, when in fact the ONLY character that really knows what happened, Ellen, hasn't spoken about it yet. Anders had a bullet in his head, and a hematoma pressing on his brain while talking about everything, and is apparently braindead right now, acting like what he had to say was 100% accurate, and trying to fill in stuff here and there, is rather foolish. Let the story finish being told, and sit on your expectations for once... So far we have all been wrong about something concerning how the story will go, and then some actually get pissed or annoyed when it doesn't go how they envisioned it would be.

Anonymous

Sat, 2009-02-14 18:44

Okay, we'll shut up if Sci-Fi channel stop advertising, Ron stops podcasting, and both of them never do another "viral marketing" campaign ever again. Look, Ron et al make their decisions. The audience has their view. We're not privvy to what's going on behind the scenes but who is anyone to tell us to can it? You can't have it both ways.

Sure, I've got something out of BSG but I've also got something out of Brad's blog on this. In many ways Brad's blog is making up for the bad science and drama that's in BSG. Maybe, the producers will learn from that. Maybe, it gives people who may have tuned it out as a piece of shit something to hold on to. It's not all bad.

JrzRob

Sat, 2009-02-14 19:42

One preview will spawn 10 different sets of expectations!

There is nothing wrong with trying to figure out what will happen next, maybe even not like the way it's going, discussing it with others, and exchanging ideas for possibilities, but it's entirely different to actually get pissed when what YOU think was gonna happen, or should happen, doesn't happen, and start trashing the show and it's writers, because you think they owe you something, and even worse, do that before they even finish telling the story.

50 million people want 1 show to turn out many different ways... Some want an actual Earth, others don't, some want the Humans to be the actual skinjobs, others don't, some want Starbuck to be a Cylon, others want her to be a being of light, while still others wanted her to remain dead. What kind of answers do you expect from Moore? What kind of previews do you wanna see? You want the whole story ahead of time so you know whether to watch or not?

Anonymous

Sat, 2009-02-14 23:12

Heard all that sort of stuff before.

The world's built a certain way, and you're putting words in my mouth.

Next time, trim the ego and don't be so rude.

Eric

Sun, 2009-02-15 09:56

FWIW, after re-watching the episode, I think Cavil is just pronouncing "Centurions" with a somewhat modified vowel.

Anonymous

Sun, 2009-02-15 10:06

Yes, brad mentioned that, and I went and re-watched it, curious if there could be a new meaning. Could the Centurions actually be Alpha Centaurians? He does pronounce it slightly different, but mostly in that he pronounces the T plainly and phonetically, and not as a 'CH' as most people tend to. I'm not convinced it's anything other than Dean Stockwell's particular accent or pronunciation. It is interesting to ponder, though.

zach

Mon, 2009-02-16 09:07

This is from Mo Ryan's "The Watcher", where the writers of "No Exit" - Jane Espenson and Ryan Mottesheard - answered some questions asked by BSG fans:

Q: Was Kobol the original origin point for humanity, or was it Earth?
Jane: I've always taken it to be Kobol.

Q: Why was Earth destroyed?
Jane: The skinjob-style Cylons on Earth built their own metal battlebots who turned on them.

Q: What does Ellen resurrect into when she dies on New Caprica? Are we supposed to infer that there are other copies of the [Final Five], just as with the seven (nee, eight) [other] models?
Ryan: Yes, you should infer that if Tigh, Tyrol, Anders or Tory died somewhere along the line, a body would’ve been waiting for them on Cavil’s baseship.

Q:How did Saul Tigh know Adama for such a long time?
Jane: They didn't meet until after the war. Saul was given false memories and introduced into life among humans at that point.

Lisa

Mon, 2009-02-16 09:43

Q: Was Kobol the original origin point for humanity, or was it Earth?
Jane: I've always taken it to be Kobol.

Brad, did you just pop a vein? There goes the whole idea that human evolved on Earth.

brad

Mon, 2009-02-16 12:48

Yeah, these are all pretty disappointing answers. Curious the way she says it, implies that they never actually settled the question in the writer's room, and certainly implies we never see real Earth.

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