Cavil as Bill Adama's Sister

Trust me, I know this one is far-fetched, but it's amusing enough to write about. First of all, it involves the widely circulated spoilers about the pilot and background for the new series, Caprica, coming out on DVD in April. So don't read this if you are staying away from those.

"Caprica" Spoiler Alert

We're told that the opening of Caprica reveals that the Cylons are created after Graystone's daughter, a computer wizard who has been creating a virtual version of herself, goes with her monotheistic radical boyfriend on a trip, but he suicide bombs the train, killing them, and also killing William Adama's mother and sister. Joseph Adama meets Graystone and they work together to bring virtual copies of their daughters back to life. Long story short, the first three Cylons have the artificial memories of Zoe Graystone, the boyfriend, and Tamara Adama -- Bill's sister. Bill is just a 10 year old boy though.

We've seen nothing of this in BSG. We don't know if it is common knowledge that Joseph Adama helped create the Cylons (not as a programmer but as a mob lawyer who steals important AI software from a fellow Tauron.) It seems if it were common knowledge, this would have made it difficult for Joseph and Bill to prosper after the first war.

Zoe, it should be pointed out, is a monotheist, led to that by a secret school of monotheists. Tamara, we presume, is a standard polytheist/atheist colonial.

Yet we've seen no signs of any Cylon retaining the memories of the early days of their race. There's no reason for that. They should not lose memory, and in fact, they can copy memories from Cylon to Cylon. And as we've discussed, the question of whether the first 8 humanoid Cylons were completely new beings, or if they incorporated the memories of older Cylons has never been settled or even really addressed. The former makes little sense as a deal. The latter should have had more impact. Some of the originals persisted as the Guardians of the first Hybrid, but most were killed by Kendra Shaw's nuke, or left for dead in the area.

So flash forward to the creation of Cavil. It makes sense that some of these oldest Cylon memories would end up in him. Now Zoe, the monotheist (or her terrorist boyfriend, also a monotheist) might be logical choices. But Cavil doesn't seem so religious. So what if he has Tamara's memories? What if Cavil remembers being Bill's big sister?

Well, we do notice that Cavil, who reprogrammed and planted the final five with the colonials, has a big interest in Bill Adama. Shortly after Saul is planted he become's Bill's best friend, and Ellen is planted with Saul, possibly already married. Tyrol is planted to land there too, on Bill (and Saul's) battlestar. Since Cavil's real purpose is to torment his creators, and not kill them, it seems likely he wanted and always planned for the Galactica to survive the war, or so it must be retconned.

This could be because all the Cylons owe a debt to Joseph Adama, not just for their creation, but -- and this is more speculation, though there are hints in revealed spoilers -- because he was also their defender and didn't want them to be enslaved.

But at least one Centurion might have a special connection to Joseph and Bill, with the memories of Tamara. This Centurion would be less likely to be monotheist, even opposed to the monotheists who caused the death of her "original."

Bill, by the way, may not be aware of any of this. He may not know his father was involved, or that his sister's memories were used. He might be quite shocked and incredulous if Cavil tells him:

Cavil: Jospeh never told you what happened to your sister.

Bill: He told me enough! He told me you zealot cylons killed her.

Cavil: No Billy. I am your sister.

Like I said, this is a very low probability theory, but it would make an amusing shock/surprise. It is also surprising how much information leaked out about Caprica (from a casting sheet.) It is unknown if they wanted that much to leak out or not, but it's been confirmed by a variety of sources.

Update: The semi-canonical "Final Five" comic series states that Cavil's memories came from a combination of fragmentary memories from a failed upload of the original John Cavil (Ellen's father) and memories of centurions. As such, memories of Zoe seem almost sure to be in there, and Tamara is also possible, though there was no hint at this in the comic or show.


But I'd still love to see them film it, and have it "accidentally" leaked prior to the airing of Endgame.

You know it to be true.

I do like your opinions and theories very much Brad... Really. ;)

Bu this one... This is the Most Absurd thought I have ever seen. :)

Hey, that's very good. Brad's taken multiple sources of information, integrated them into a polished whole, and come up with a peach of a punchline. It might not be good art but it's certainly good engineering. Genius!

Cavil as Bill's sister? Can the Swirl be far behind?

I think the show is going to be more self-contained than that. While anything is possible, and i'm sure they'd love a little cross-promotion, I don't think they'd want to confuse the viewer by introducing these elements from Caprica so late in the game. I think they want to keep BSG to itself, and let Caprica simply be a backstory that adds to it.

Now, they may do exactly what you're saying, which is quite interesting, actually, and not as far-fetched and/or silly as everyone here seems to think-- but if they do, they'll reveal it on Caprica, not on BSG. I actually kind of like the idea, and think it would be a big 'holy crap' moment that they could do on Caprica-- maybe that could be the big reveal in the Caprica series finale.

And of course, if ratings for Caprica falter, don't think for a second they won't drag actors from BSG over to reprise their roles, or to play Caprican ancestors. Hey look, it's Baltar's grandfather, the president of a computer company out to take over the Graystone's business! And in next week's episode, Jamie Bamber guest stars as Joseph Adama's little brother! They may even do a flash-forward at some point to show a little BSG action during sweeps week.

Heck, maybe Tricia Helfer can guest star as Head Six. Clearly they've been around for a while, who's to say people didn't see them on Caprica? Maybe Daniel was guided by one? Could the evolution of the Caprican Cylons have been orchestrated by the head characters all along, just like other events??? Hmmm, that's an interesting thought, actually.

I like certain parts of this idea. It would also satisfy Leoben's contention that "Adama is a Cylon." I'm not quite sold that Tamara's memories would show up in Cavil, but anything is possible. If they had a fully-functioning AI version of Tamara, meaning they had recreated her personality (which seems to be the case from the teaser trailer) then why put her a body so different from who she was? It's possible that she wanted that, but the case would have to be made for why.

It does make more sense that Tamara's memories would show up in one of the earlier Cylons if at all, but there's something about Bill's closeness to Boomer that makes me wonder. Maybe this is what makes the Eights so different from the other models? Also, remember that at some point "Adama" gets changed to "Adams" and then back again, so it may have been changed to distance the family from whatever involvement Joseph had in the early Cylon creation.

Given the loose ends nature of the show, I would not be surprised if in some way an Adama is a cylon. Another interesting thing about "Flesh and Bone", when Leoben is helping Roslin escape "cylons", they are running from Colonial Soldiers. True Story.

While I don't expect Cavil to necessarily have them, I do have to ask where the memories of Zoe, Ben and Tamara end up. The writers have had this backstory around for a while now. Do those memories just vanish? Do some Centurions have them? Do some of the Guardians from Razor have them? It is odd if they end up nowhere.

For those interested in more Caprica spoilage there is this.

Sheesh, no wonder those Cenurians have an attitude and need restraining bolts. How would you feel if you were this state of the art killing machine and someone called you Debbie.

Oh, the horror.

Holy fuck... Hera?

Yeah, that was my reaction too. In a box! How absolutely horrible! That kind of crossed a line for me, but I figure Cavil will keep Hera alive as a bargaining chip to get the Five to rebuild resurrection. Also, Boomer drugged her so I hope she doesn't remember a thing. Still, that's so traumatic. If I wasn't so interested in finding out about Starbuck I might have turned the show off.

On a lighter note, I totally called it that Hera was writing out notes. I thought they'd be notes to Metamorphosis, but Watchtower works too.

When she came to the Raptor with the box I couldn't believe it-- it was a great moment because they didn't spell it out and show her, you just had to infer that she was in there. And even without the disturbing imagery shown, I literally put my hand over my mouth and was on the verge of pausing the video to collect my emotions. That's a rarity for me with a TV show.

Really? THAT was disturbing? Honestly, I can think of more disturbing things this show has brought up, but ok, sure. Children, like animals elicit such stupid responses in audiences. Can have a movie/tv show where 1000s of people are killed, in horrible horrific, visually graphic ways, but insinuate a child or a dog/cat/gopher/etc. was so much as looked at the wrong way and it is "disturbing".

Seriously. Like how Helo didn't notice Boomer was missing a C section scar.

He was blinded by lust, I guess?

I also found it odd that Hera didn't notice. They'd previously mentioned that Hera (as a baby) could tell her mother from the other 8's, plus the cylons seem to be able to tell one another apart. Nothing I can't overlook, but something I wondered about when I saw it.

Hera draws things that she can't possibly know. The book of 6s. The song notes. She went to Natalie instinctively. If she knows she has to go with Boomer, I think it is safe to say, she would have gone. I am guessing we will find out this is part of the Opera House. Baltar and either HeadSix or CapricaSix are going to save Hera somehow.

First, why are you criticizing something that disturbs me? Why does that bother you? Are you just looking for an argument, or to be contrary, or to show how tough you are?

There has never been any seriously graphic violence on BSG that I found 'disturbing'. A few things I looked away from just because I don't like gore, but nothing that stirred up any emotions. Horrible acts against children, like stuffing them in a box and kidnapping them? Yes.

There's a reason why crimes against children carry larger penalties. If you can't understand why people are disturbed by stuff like this, then that's your problem, not mine for being disturbed. People who aren't disturbed by that sort of thing are the ones with the problem.

I hate to play this card, but being that you're someone who doesn't understand why crimes against children are disturbing i think I may have to:

"Maybe you'll feel differently when you have children."

Pfff. That old line. He's not the only one thinking you guys are overreacting. It can just be another form of selfishness like fat people running for heart charities after they've had a scare. Also, some people and cultures think that sort of display is rude. You may want to calm down before emotionalising and laying stuff on like that.

First, this "he" is a she. Second, if this were real life, I would have a different opinion, but as someone who works in the industry, I think it is kind of silly that some things can create this feeling while much worse atrocities can be committed in the scope of the drama itself without people batting an eyelash. It is like when Joss Whedon had to fight with network execs to allow him to keep the dog meat sign in the pilot that aired after the show was canceled. Oh noes, it implies they killed dogs to get the meat, can't have that, but shooting a cop in the face, no problem!

Well, I agree with you there. Network execs are nitwits. Personally when it comes to censorship, I'd condone sex over graphic violence.

But as for your earlier point, I think the line people have between violence against people as opposed to animals and children is that animals and children are typically innocent and/or unable to defend themselves.

Also, why do you think it's silly tha these things stir emotions? Isn't that the primary goal of a good story?

You are missing my point. I commented on the fact that this particular incident was more over the line than other things that have happened. Maybe that wasn't clear, but it has been my point since the beginning. There are much worse things that have happened in the scope of the drama, that if this crosses the line, it is no different than the dog meat sign in Firefly.

I find it difficult to maintain the distance I have as a viewer when violence against children is depicted. I'm with Alvin on this point that it's not something to be ashamed of.

I liked the way they shot what happened to Hera. They didn't need to show any of the details to get the point across. The development was supposed to be disturbing and it was. It proves that disturbing does not have to equal graphic violence.

I agree, people can lose perspective. There's Lisa et all telling us it's just a show when we hold the producers to a standard, then they throw a wobbly over some drama showing a kid stuffed in a suitcase. There's gotta be a Norm joke on that somewhere.

Who's throwing a wobbly? I do like the term, however and I may usurp it for my own usage in the future :) I don't think anyone's going crazy over it, though I find your sentence rather comical, as if stuffing a child in a suitcase is an everyday occurrence.

Regarding producer comments or the standards we hold them to, that's a completely different issue entirely. Getting emotional about comments made by a writer that may conflict with your (royal you, not you specifically) interpretation of a science fiction story is ENTIRELY different than getting emotional over dramatic content intended to elicit emotions.

Personally I don't think I was 'disturbed' based on your the definition of the term. 'Unsettled' might be a better word. Just another reason to not put too much stock in writer comments, as words can have different meaningss or severities based on the person reading it. Some people think I went 'all wobbly' but to me, it was just 'oh jeez!' and a little wincing.

'throwing a wobbly' by the way, reminds me of the Homestarrunner phrase 'the jibblies' coined by Mr. Strong Bad. It's my phrase now and you can't take it back from me.

So, let me get this straight: You're saying that it's OK to get all worked up over some comment a producer makes in an interview, but it's not OK to be unsettled over fictional violence against a child?

Do I understand your point of view correctly?

No, you missed the point completely.

You missed my point completely as well.

Actually I understand you just fine, your premise is fallacious making your conclusion incorrect.

No, you don't understand just fine.

"You're saying that it's OK to get all worked up over some comment a producer makes in an interview, but it's not OK to be unsettled over fictional violence against a child?"

That isn't what was being said. It was stated that you told people it wasn't a big deal when the producer made comments, even if it was to them (note that part, it is the key), and then someone pointed out you shouldn't be upset about something, even if it was upsetting to you (see how that works) and then more argument broke out about what is "over the line" and there was a bunch of confusion because someone didn't read your post so things were taken out of context, blah, blah, blah, and here we are and you have, as pointed out, misunderstood.

So what's your beef with me then?

You said:

There's Lisa et all telling us it's just a show when we hold the producers to a standard, then they throw a wobbly over some drama showing a kid stuffed in a suitcase.

Yes, I was among several people who said it's just a show before, but you're assuming that I'm not saying that when it comes to what happened to Hera. I never said one way or the other, but I'll say it now so we're all on the same page: It's still just a show. There have been other unsettling developments in addition to this Hera plotline and it was just a show then too. It was just a show when Hera was boxed, it was just a show when Gina was tortured and raped repeatedly on the Pegasus, it was just a show when they took Hera away and claimed she was dead, it was just a show when a pregnant Six was beaten in Dogsville, and it was just a show when Saul was tortured.

My opinion has been entirely consistent that we should maintain perspective and keep in mind that this is in the end just entertainment whether we're talking about dissecting off-show comments or the emotional impact of certain plotlines.

I didn't say that...

I just pointed out you were misinterpreting things.

There's no way for me to know that when you're posting as anonymous.

He may not be the only one thinking we're overreacting, but he's the only one vocalizing it (so to speak). I don't think we should be made to feel ashamed of our emotions, or that we are not as tough as others to be so un-moved. Nothing wrong with being un-moved, either (by a tv show, that is). Everyone is different.

Anyway, as far as the over-reacting itself, I wasn't so disturbed by six breaking the babies neck in the mini, just a hint of 'oh shit, wtf?!' In this instance, however, we're dealing with characters we've grown connected to, emotionally invested in. Helo, Athena, Tyrol, even Hera herself-- we cut right from a shot of a bloodied, grieving mother who's just been beaten and has lost her child, to a shot of a child stuffed in a box and being carried away. Grace Park did a wonderful job portraying a grieving mother.

In fact, the writer's likely chose that method of kidnapping for the very fact that it IS unsettling. They could have easily had Boomer telling Hera they're going for a ride or something, but they wanted to stir people's emotions, something good dramas like BSG do.

But come the podcast I think it is safe to say the reasoning will be exactly what Athena and Helo are screaming at the deck hand about at the end. How do you sneak a child past people without being seen.

The love climbing into boxes. I don't see the problem, especially since Hera was sleeping.

Wait, Hera was sleeping? Oh, forget it then. I didn't know.

Why is everyone making such a big deal out of me finding the scene unsettling?

I think there is some confusion here. I think no one has a problem with it being "unsettling" to the viewer. It is the idea that this should be more "unsettling" than other events in the show, as Lisa originally commented. At least that is what I see here.

Oh, I hadn't seen Lisa's post. I'm not going to speak to another person's emotions, but whether they're the same as mine, less or more severe, I don't think people should be criticizing others for feeling as they do.

And I think likewise, what people find more or less unsettling is up to the individual, but let's face it, crimes against children, I think, are generally more disturbing. It's the feeling Lucas was TRYING to convey with the slaughter of the younglings (I can't stand that term).

I do now see what another poster pointed out: Hera may have let herself be taken if she is aware of her destiny, as she seems to be (subconsciously at the very least). Not something that came across so straight-forward at the time, but makes it less unsettling if it is the case. Again, I think this scenario was intentional from the writers: illicit emotions through a sensitive topic (child abduction) but later reveal that Hera welcomed the 'kidnapping'.

Ah, now. "Younglings". That does have me reaching for the bottle of green ink.

I think there is some confusion here. I think no one has a problem with it being "unsettling" to the viewer. It is the idea that this should be more "unsettling" than other events in the show, as Lisa originally commented. At least that is what I see here.

There seems to be some kind of disconnect here. This is what I said:

Yeah, that was my reaction too. In a box! How absolutely horrible! That kind of crossed a line for me, but I figure Cavil will keep Hera alive as a bargaining chip to get the Five to rebuild resurrection. Also, Boomer drugged her so I hope she doesn't remember a thing. Still, that's so traumatic. If I wasn't so interested in finding out about Starbuck I might have turned the show off.

On a lighter note, I totally called it that Hera was writing out notes. I thought they'd be notes to Metamorphosis, but Watchtower works too.

There have been other moments on the show that I found equally unsettling such as Gina's repeated rape on Pegasus and a pregnant Six being beaten up in Dogsville. You're making assumptions that aren't true if you think this was the only unsettling moment for me in the show. The difference is that some pretty horrible things happen during war and when you're watching a show about war you expect to see some of that. The kidnapping of a child, however, is something that can happen anytime.

I don't understand either, Alvin.

Boomer drugged a 3 year old child and stuffed her in a box. She used a defenseless child's complete trust in her mother to do this. I find that unsettling.

The most disturbing thing that came from this show had to be The Farm. That was absolutely disgusting. I can't think of that without getting nauseous.

The scenes where Boomer was seducing Hera were quite disturbing, and Hera in the box... Oh god I think this show gives me adrenaline rushes.

Now that Boomer crashed into Galactica, I think Adama is going to lose all faith in this alliance. And then shit goes to hell.

Oh yeah, and Hera is dead.

But I don't think Hera is dead. Don't know how long she can survive in the crate, but I think she's too valuable to the cylons to allow her to die. If any one character needs to survive this show, it's Hera.

But I guess that just means it'd be all the more dramatic if they killed her off.

The Raptor managed to jump. Did nobody listen to the actual conversation about what would happen if they jumped that close to the ship? The crater on Galactica was the jump couple with the structure of the ship being compromised. The Raptor and Hera will be picked up by John's Basestar and be just fine.

I got the impression that Boomer jumped. Hera is not dead. Yes, there was damage done to the Galactica, but if Hera dies the show is pretty much over. Cavil is going to use Hera to get the Five to rebuild resurrection.

I get the feeling that Cavil has bigger plans for Hera than simply using her as a bargaining chip. Maybe i'm wrong.

In any event, Hera is important to both the cylons (evil and good, except MAYBE Cavil) and the humans, who see her just as much as one of their own at this point. Hera's abduction could backfire on Cavil as it could act as a rallying point for the Human/Cylon fleet to pursue and wipe out Cavil's group. Hera is a child of both the Cylons and the Humans, and let's face it-- nothing spurs the adrenaline of a parent like a threat to their child.

He was not a fan of the Hera plot but he needs ressurection, and if he can't get it, Hera's the only other shot.

I think it might be interesting now if they ARE all cylons-- in our far future. We created centurions on OUR Earth. They rebelled, left for Kobol, invented the colonial humanoids, who were programmed to think they were human (the lords of Kobol may in fact be humans from OUR era). Their AI rebelled, left for Earth, invented their own centurions who rebelled and the 5 left for the colonies and helped the Caprican centurions to invent humanoid cylons. The five would then be unaware of the Colonials true nature, as well.

At the end of the show, imagine the Fleet finding their our Earth. We see the colonials coming, and to their suprise they hear us say 'Stay away, Cylons, or we'll destroy you.' Imagine the WTF moment for both the audience AND the characters.

It dawned on me that we may have gotten all the answers we're going to get regarding the history of the 13 humanoid cylons, unless it's something they don't even know. We've had Ellen on-board for two whole episodes, and she has all her memories back. If she had more information to reveal, I feel like she would have mentioned it to the others by now.

The mysteries remaining all involve Starbuck, Baltar and the overall history and mythology behind the entire saga. So unless it's something hidden from the Ellen, I don't think we'll get any more answers on the cylon's history until 'The Plan.' Frankly, that's okay with me, because they've given us the basic layout, and anything else just fills in little gaps and is not necessarily integral.

Pretty sure Daniel, Head people, the song, and what planet came first will all be revealed by the end. I think the Final Five have told us everything they know. The very idea that they had all the answers was a foolish notion to begin with.

The moment I saw the spoiler summary saying "Starbuck gets a clue into her destiny or whatever" I knew this epsiode was going to be another cock tease. It wasn't as bad as last week, and more action in and was faster paced but I found it pretty boring. Woah, Galen does projection. Woah, the Final Five gather around the weegee board to scare each other. Woah, Starbuck cuts her tits off with a rusty can. Well, maybe not but you know what I mean.

"Yet we’ve seen no signs of any Cylon retaining the memories of the early days of their race. There’s no reason for that. They should not lose memory, and in fact, they can copy memories from Cylon to Cylon."

I think you're forgetting that Cylons didn't have this technology until after it was given to them by the Final Five.

The ability to download a brain they got (along with all their new stuff) from the final 5. The ability to share memories among a model would not have existed on "Earth." That is a new development.

The metal cylons however, started with memory transfer (not organic, but programmed) from three humans, and grew from that. As computerized beings they could naturally copy and transfer their memories, or at least their whole personalities. The files which were the collected memories of Tamara would not, you would think, be erased, but possibly Joseph did just that.

True, but let me expand upon what I mean. There's a distinction to be made between individual copies of an AI program and memory files being transferred between them. All we know is that Graystone loaded up an AI instance (a Cylon unit) with the memories of Tamara and another AI instance with the memories of his daughter. We don't know if they were networked in such a way as to be able to share these memories. The technology of loading an AI with memories from a person (i.e. Organic Memory Transfer) might have been something that Graystone kept secret from his creations. Other AI instances might have had to grow up and gain their own memories in order to mature.

In theory, the Caprica story has Zoe being a big part of the genius behind the AI development, but not all of it.

Either way, Tamara's experiences are there to be read as a book, if not in an easy form to integrate into a Cylon's personal memories. Somewhere in their archives is enough for Cavil to access all that they put into the Tamara-bot. If Adama and Graystone could encode that, Cavil certainly can, he knows a lot more about things (especially memory manipulation!) than they ever did.

Fast forward to 2010, Caprica is live and it sucks ass, the story makes absolutely no sense and doesn't even tie into BSG. It may as well be a twisted version of alice in wonderland, the bastard version.

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