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Fans are in for a surprise

I was recently at the World Science Fiction Convention (see another blog post) and attended a panel on BSG. It was a very disappointing panel, with two participants of no great qualifications, and a moderator who mistakenly felt what everybody wanted was to hear the two panelists debate the merits of 1970s BSG compared to modern BSG. Not that this isn't an interesting thing to talk about, but the fact that there was an older, cheesier source is about the least important thing about this show.

However, at the end of the session, I got up and asked the crowd for views on various controversies. Did they feel that this was in the far future and that Earth was the homeworld, for example? Even after seeing the ruined Earth, still only a few felt that. Did they think the Final Five were thousands of years old -- only 2 out of a room of 50.

Of course, if I were more humble I would take that as a sign to reconsider my strong expectations that these things are true. But since my suppositions have proven decently good at predicting the direction of the show, I take it another way -- the fans are in for a big shock. These were serious SF readers, a cut above your average fan, and they have not picked up on the clues relating to this. (Discussion after indicated that it wasn't that they had seen the clues and disagreed, but rather had not picked up on them.) Moore has hid his secrets really well.

I wonder if even the actors had not clued into these elements, since many people inside the production have written about how shocking the ending will be, but how satisfying.

I guess I should not be too surprised at this. After Tigh and the rest were revealed as Cylons, many informed fans raved for months that it must be a trick, that they just think they are Cylons. In spite of the way they added "and we have been from the start" to the script to stop such speculation, it was rampant. I still run into people who think it's a trick, even after getting to the ruined Earth and having D'Anna reveal she saw Tigh and the others in the temple. I still regularly see people insist that this is all taking place in the past or present. So congratulations, Mr. Moore, you are going to shock them. I hope that, even if I'm right about the core mysteries, he still manages to surprise and impress me as well.

Or of course, he may just show I was totally wrong. :-)


Well, then this should be fun. I do have to agree with you that most of the comments and general level of understanding seems to be lagging on other websites. This site was the first I've found that has pulled it all together and articulated some of the more nuanced concepts of the show.

I still believe that some of the evidence we've been considering will prove to be false, in one way or another, as a way of the producers, in effect, saving the fans from themselves. In other words: it would stink if we really could figure it all out now with a strong degree of certainty. And it would stink for the SciFi network, for the show, and for the producers.

So I think that, at some point, they very deliberately introduced some elements to keep everyone off balance.

As for what's likely to be a red herring... I keep coming back to the two important pieces of evdidence: that the final cylon is not in the Last Supper photo and that only "four" are in the fleet.

I'd have to check, but are we sure Ron referred to the BSG photo in Entertainment Weekly or did he just say "the Last Supper"? After all, clearly no cylons are in the original Last Supper by Da Vinci. It's something of a sucker punch, but fair enough, I suppose.

As for four in the fleet... the thing that gets me with this is how no one challenged it. Why didn't someone say: "Wait just a second, Xena -- we know there are five cylons remaining, and you've just said we've got four of them. Well, where's the fifth?" Especially once they've made a truce toward the end of Revelations... It's a little stunning that no one asked this, or asked if it was Starbuck or Baltar, since people are or have been suspicious of both of them.

In any case, even with my "advanced" understanding, I have no doubt I'll be surprised as well. Let's just hope they don't kick all the good stuff over to Caprica!

I was pretty sure the Last Supper clue was a red herring myself, since it tossed out all the interesting characters. So I went to the reporter who had heard Moore confirm it, and she went and double checked with Moore for me. Alas, he came back with something much less equivocal. I wish he hadn't, actually.

Four in the fleet: Roslin did challenge it in exactly the way you say. D'Anna asked for four. Roslin says "I thought there were 5." D'Anna says she wants four.

So while some thing she's lying about whether the 5th is also in the fleet, she is not lying that she only wants 4 of them. That's a deed, not a statement. She demands 4, kills hostages until they give her 4, is ready to nuke the fleet if they don't give her 4. If the 5th is in the fleet, she's ready to nuke him or her.

Someone who was actually at the photo shoot, and is in the photo, Aaron Douglas, has stated that the actors chose their own poses. If they chose their poses how the hell did Ron Moore orchestrate the photo. He also pointed out Ron Moore was not there that day. That doesn't really mean much, but added together with actors allowed to chose their own poses and it paints a picture that Moore is using this whole thing to his advantage to screw with the fans and good on him for doing it. On top of that, define the word "final" for me, because last I checked that means "last", not 5th. The "last" cylon revealed could be some person no one has ever seen in the entirety of the show and NOT be one of the Final Five. Of course I don't believe it will be some random shmuck they pull off the street and say, "You are the 5th now, go nuts," I am just pointing out that assuming he is talking about the 5th of the Final Five and the "final" revealed cylon are two very different things.

Note also there are two 6s in that picture. Maybe the one of those actors is the "final" cylon, but the person in that picture isn't the person that gets revealed. Moore's actual conversation in regards to the photo uses the term "revealed". What if they reveal that actor as a boxed cylon in a factory. It would not be the person in the picture being revealed as the "final" but the boxed them.

That picture is, in my opinion, the dumbest source of information in regards to any revelations one can use. Next you are gonna tell me the BSG/Barbarella photo has a hidden meaning in it. Maybe the final cylon is BARBARELLA!!!

By higher level sources with the show, including of course Moore himself. And yes, they are photoshopped because the photo has been changing on the web site, characters moved, the fire put out, the glasses changed etc.

I don't know about 5th and final, but I do know the credits every week say "four live in secret, one will be revealed."

The picture has not changed on the site. I have been using it as my wallpaper at work since the pic was released and just compared it to the current image on the main page of the BSG site on Not sure where you are seeing changes, but it is the exact same as the original image.

On the site it is a flash program, not an image, and yes it has changed, you've just missed it.

Changes are documented at The Last Supper.

It could be that the reason so many people have had a hard time guessing the ending is because Moore didn't have a clue where he was going, made it up as he went along, and is going to give us something that makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.

I don't think that's the case, I certainly hope it isn't, but Chris Carter taught me to keep an open mind.

Another way to look at it is that Moore and co. haven't limited themselves to a rigid plotline and structure. It seems like they've tried to take advantage of new ideas, current events, and the other aspects that arise when a show and its characters evolve over several seasons.

And I'm okay with the few loose ends and red herrings that come along with this. Frankly, the ability of a TV show to evolve is one of its most distinguishing features over movies and why, when they get it right, a TV show can be far more interesting and have much greater depth.

I'm also okay with some of the technical inconsistencies. For instance, if it turns out that they meant that final shot in Revelations to be earth from 4,000 years ago, I'm fine with the fact that in reality the city would have looked far different (e.g., no steel beams sticking out, etc.). After all, even the worst technical errors in this show are, at most, trivial and don't really interfere with anyone's ability to grasp the basic plot.

But there are two things that will drive me nuts if they happen in the final set of episodes in the show. First, if they kick over most of the unanswered questions to Caprica, such as where the final five actually came from, what happened on Kobol, and whether they were behind the (re)introduction of Cylons to the 12 Colonies 50 years ago.

And second, if in the winding up of the show the writers either take an easy way out or rush head-long into campy or cliched scifi rubble. In other words, if it feels like (a) Star Trek Voyager (humans always good, borg always bad, and time travel can solve any problem), (b) Revenge of the Sith (I could go on and on here, but let's settle for none of the "from my point of view the jedi are evil!" crap), or (c) the X-Files (overwrought premise, too little revealed, too many plot twists, going on and on like a bad marriage).

I know Moore is on record as saying no time travel or aliens, so (a) is probably not likely to happen. And the show has in any event been good at not casting the humans as always good. (Aside: If you think about it, there's really no way Data would have not joined the Borg. Machines always turn on humans, even when programmed to protect them. Data's desire to evolve would naturally have led him to embrace the Borg's far more efficient and sophisticated civilization. He would have been able to learn far more about everything if plugged into the collective. And they had those skin grafts... No way he'd prefer kicking Geordi's ass in checkers in 10 Forward for another 20 years.)

I also think (c) is unlikely, since the show is, in fact, ending. Although if you view Capirca as an extension, there still is a possibility of the whole human-cylon-thousand-year-ballad going on for several more years.

But (b) worries me. The prequel trilogy left much to be desired. I still enjoyed it, but it was disheartening to see so much potential left lying on the floor. That said, if Edward James Olmos has played Anakin, I probably would have been fine with it. Brilliant actors make up for a lot. (And yes, I know the age difference would have been weird, but go on and tell me you wouldn't want to see EJO "turn" to the Dark Side.)

Did you hear about Aaron Douglas' supposed leakage of the first new episode coming up in January? If you want check it out but beware.. SPOILERS ( unless of course, the man is leaking false info)

This is the third deep spoiler to come from Douglas, which is too many to be an accident. So either they are all bogus, or just possibly the first one was too real and they told him to go out and tell a bunch of bogus ones to bury that first one in noise.

Now his story of two planets called Earth just might be workable, but the problem is the constellations in the Tomb of Athena look like ours, and there could not be a New Earth with the same constellations, unless it's a terraformed Mars.

I really think this is false information. Its simply too convoluted and then there's the give away use of the sentance, "It's all there just go back and look at it."

I don’t know if anything anyone is saying is true. I’m reading the Sci-fi forums and they are making statements I don’t know are true or not.

Here are some examples:

The Constellations seen in the Temple on Kobal does not match our Earth Constellations.

The Constellations seen at the Ambush of Natalie’s Fleet buy Cavil’s Fleet matches our Earth Constellations therefor the Gas Giant seen is Jupiter.

They are saying since these two things are True the Planet landed at the end of Revelations “the Cinder Planet” is not our Earth but some other “New Earth”.

They are also saying the Cinder Planet is the Cylon home world and as soon as the RTF finds out they are off again to the real Earth.

They are also saying that if you watch the entire series from the beginning looking for hints as to the final Cylon’s Identity is its pretty clear that Admiral Adama is the Final Cylon. I think he’s an AI descendant and in fact all Colonials are also but I’m not sure he’s the final Cylon to be revealed. I have always wondered though if it wouldn’t be ironic that he was in fact one of the Twelve Cylon models.

People are sticking to the idea that the Thirteenth Tribe departed from Kobal and founded the Civilization that was to become to Cinder Planet as written in the scriptures and that the 13th tribe were Cylons. They also think this happened at most a Century or Two before the events in the BSG series and perhaps just before the events of the show Caprica. Thus, the show Caprica is about how Cylon’s (or the Lords of Kobal or Final Five, who knows) infiltrated the Colonies after the destruction of the Cinder Planet and started messing with everything. There is even speculation that at least Tigh was a baby born on the Cinder planet or the Final Five seen on the show are from the Cinder planet and came to the colonies as baby’s.

So I’m confused. I liked the idea that the Revelations Planet was our Earth 4000 years after our Civilization wiped itself our by starting a Cylon War Cycle that went from Earth to Kobal to the Colonies and finally back to the beginning. I can see how some of these points fill some gaps but I really would like to know if what the Star Fields match or not.

Something would have to fool with their dating techniques.

It is an interesting plot to consider that the colonies are not 2,000 years old, but 100 years old, and were created with fake memories and history. But that's a bit extreme, and as I note, it means the fakery has to extend to having the carbon or other radioactive dating they do giving wrong answers.

And this plot has been done a fair bit, and I think might leave the audience cheated rather than satisfied.

Though I do admit we have been told nothing of how the colonials managed to flee Kobol in starships 2,000 years ago, but not appear to have improved their technology since then.

Come on people.
After the end of Season 3, Roslin and Admiral's possibility of being a Cylon is approximately 0.
Just a simple logic I'm talking about.

Tell me,
What is the point of turning Roslin out a Cylon,
If Tory who has the Second top position of The Fleet civil administration was already a Cylon ??

And again,
What is the point of turning Admiral out a Cylon,
if Saul Tigh who has the Second Top position of Military forces was already a Cylon ??

Making Admiral or Roslin a Cylon would totally destroy,
the "meaning" of their right hand's "real identities".

Therefore, I think we all should seek other possibilities other than Roslin and Big Adama.

BSG's third act has dwelled so far on the identities of the final five unknown cylons. But I have a suspicion the word "final" may refer to something more, as in "this is the end of the cylon line", the final five being the end survivors of the Cylon race. If the prophecies call for a last battle at the home of the gods, I doubt the series will end with a standoff.

The identity of the final cylon should reveal some principle or truth about the cylons. The last cylon has to be someone special like the cylon god, one of the creators or first among equals. You can't play the identity as a secret then unmask the character with just "oh, look, he's one, too!" Way too trivial.

I would love for Moore and company to spend the remaining episodes exploring cylon nature and the relationship between cylon and human - whether we're each the other in disguise or too different to call brother (a subject partially independent of the question of origins). Don't leave the revelations to the end without exploring their depth. I'd prefer less battle stuff unless it serves that purpose.

BTW, if Tigh hadn't already been revealed I would be rooting for him as the last cylon. What better joke on the universe than having a drunk running things!

Does anyone remember the probe they found near the Lion's Head nebula that contained a virus harmful to cylons?

The probe was destroyed when the base star that found it blew up, and thanks to cylonphile Helo the remaining cylon population was never exposed to the virus.

The "final five" were immune from this virus, which further supports the concept discussed here that the five orginated on Earth and the human settlement on Kobol came afterward.

I wonder if we'll learn more about the probe in the final episodes? It raises some interesting questions, including:

Were the final five hostile to the "new" cylons? Are they still? Did they intend the probe to prevent cylons from reaching earth? (Maybe they immunized themselves from the virus.)

Or was the virus developed by "original" humans, as part of a war with the AI that arose on Earth?

I'm very excited for the season to resume. Best show on TV, by far.

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