Saul and the hand grenade

Submitted by brad on Fri, 2009-01-30 21:57

The last few episodes haven't added a lot for those theorizing on the big mysteries, but they are good plot. But one item at the cliffhanger of tonight's episode does promise something.

(This relates to information from the "scenes from next week" which some view as spoilers.)

I think Saul throws himself on the grenade. This saves Adama. (Mythbusters showed that this can work, and they didn't even use a Cylon version of Buster.)

And while Saul probably would throw himself on a grenade for Bill -- though I am not sure why either of them are guarding that useless airlock after the raptor is away -- he has some extra reason now. He remembers dying before and coming back.

Now they would not normally kill a popular character like Tigh with so many episodes to go, though they are going to be killing major characters very soon. And if they did, they would not tell you in the previews.

But I think Saul's coming back. Kate Vernon said she would be back next week. Perhaps Saul comes back with her. I wonder if he gets his eye back, or if a full-regeneration (vs. new body without memories) gets repairs or just a duplication. If I were the writers I would give him his eye back.

And then the fireworks can begin. And I always liked Gaeta.

(Note that further previews suggest Tigh dies later, if he dies at all, and he does not get his eye back. This is probably just a flash grenade. Still would be a good plot twist to kill him and bring him back with Ellen.)

On another note, one thing we learned last week is when to not pay attention to podcast comments. After Tyrol was revealed as a Cylon, Moore was asked if now Nicky was a half-Cylon. He said yes, he was, though his story would not be the same as Hera's.

Well, that was an off the cuff answer and people took it as gospel. We declared Cally as the one person assured to be human because of it. She was human, but not because of this. We learn that Moore and the rest feel perfectly OK reversing remarks like those if they now want to take the plot another way.

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Comments

Eric

Sat, 2009-01-31 09:36

But either way, I'm also betting on Tigh getting killed and coming back. Great story potential for sure.

Good observation about not taking RDM's offline comments as permanent gospel. I'm actually OK with that because he's always been straightforward about their making a lot of this up as they go along.

JeffLiss

Tue, 2009-02-03 09:16

I doubt that's an anti-personnel grenade. Most likely a flash-bang; since none of the Marines are wearing masks, it's probably not gas.

Anonymous

Tue, 2009-02-03 12:14

I agree, it's a flashbang. The shape was about right and the preview showed a big flash through the gap in the door when it went off. It's likely the players would recognise it and even if one was dumb enough to throw themselves on top it wouldn't cause more than minor damage. My guess is Tigh gets killed during the confrontation and Adama with Roslin safe decides to brass it out in the hope of influencing events.

Greg

Tue, 2009-02-03 17:45

Yeah, The first word printed on the top of that grenade looks an awful lot like 'FLASH'...

Anonymous

Tue, 2009-02-03 19:38

Well it sure as hell ain't an industrial sized butt plug.

In space no one can hear you scream...

Oops. Wrong franchise.

Mr D

Sun, 2009-02-01 00:28

I'm not sure the comment by Nicky got reconned; if I understand a recent interview correctly, it was an outright lie. RDM acknowleged that Nicky posed a problem when Tyrol was made a Cylon, and one of the staff writers quickly ferreted out the answer. So by the time RDM was making these comments, he likely knew Nicky was human. However, as with Starbuck's death, he couldn't say so without spoiling upcoming storylines. In the end, his comment was not misleading so far as the Final Cylon mystery is concerned, so I say no harm, no foul.

brad

Mon, 2009-02-02 13:01

He says he's a hybrid right after the end of season 3 airs. I can see the writer's meeting about what to do about it taking place in the season 4 writing sessions. There was a one year gap between 3 and 4.

Lisa

Wed, 2009-02-04 14:22

I'm not sure the comment by Nicky got reconned; if I understand a recent interview correctly, it was an outright lie.

My main problem with Tyrol not being Nicky's father is that, IIRC, the main reason Cally was in the airlock thinking about killing her and Nicky was because she thought she'd given birth a half-Cylon baby. If she knew for a fact that Tyrol was not Nicky's father she would not be thinking that. So, in that case, Nicky being human is a retcon.

Dustin

Sun, 2009-02-01 16:49

"On another note, one thing we learned last week is when to not pay attention to podcast comments. After Tyrol was revealed as a Cylon, Moore was asked if now Nicky was a half-Cylon. He said yes, he was, though his story would not be the same as Hera’s.

Well, that was an off the cuff answer and people took it as gospel. We declared Cally as the one person assured to be human because of it. She was human, but not because of this. We learn that Moore and the rest feel perfectly OK reversing remarks like those if they now want to take the plot another way."

You mean like this one?

"The question I would really like to see addressed is how to reconcile the underlying quest of Battlestar Galactica with actual scientific plausiability. The quest of Battlestar Galactica is to find Earth, the 13th Colony. However, it is a basic and well-substantiated tenet of science that human life here on Earth evolved slowly from a primate ancestor. Attempts to deny evolution based on the notion that human kind deserves a far more worthy origin than what evolution details, are a diservice to the pursuit of scientific truth and endeavors in our own world. There was always that reactionary sense to the original series, which drove it away from a secure standing as *science* fiction. How will the new series avoid this pitfall?"

I don't have a direct answer for this question yet. There are a couple of notions rolling around in my head as to how we reconcile the very real fact of evolution with the Galactica mythos, but I haven't decided which approach to take. However, it was a fundamental element of the orginal Galactica mythos that "Life here began out there..." and I decided early on that it was crucial to maintain it.

brad

Mon, 2009-02-02 13:03

This one is not yet false. There are two ways for it to be true, one sucky, one more interesting.

  • He resolves this by saying, "this is not our universe at all." Ie. the Earth in this universe is completely unrelated to ours, it's a Cylon populated world that is now dead. End of story. Evolution took place on Kobol or elsewhere.
  • Or, as many people now believe, the "Earth" we saw is more a "new Earth" named that by the cylons who colonized it. The real Earth is still out there.

MrD

Mon, 2009-02-02 22:22

He's already said, essentially, that this isn't our universe (and it isn't). Back in a S1 commentary, when talking about the Cylon "Pregnancy Plan" said that something like "maybe in this universe love is a necessary component for reproduction." While I give this no real weight, if we're going to microanalyze everything he said outside of the show, it is fair game.

JrzRob

Tue, 2009-02-03 03:05

Some people take too much of what RDM says literally. He isn't imagining the existence of a parallel universe separate from ours, he's imagining OUR universe.

brad

Tue, 2009-02-03 09:52

If he never shows the real Earth, then he's not doing our universe. And even if he is, in our universe Bob Dylan wrote AATW, not Samuel Anders, and there's no FTL jumping.

JrzRob

Tue, 2009-02-03 11:16

He has it written in the story that the colonies are looking for a planet called Earth, that a was colonized by the 13th tribe of humans... Doesn't sound much like he's envisioning a universe separate from ours, he is clearly envisioning our universe, and our existence differently from reality. Unless you are watching a biopic or docudrama, you are watching something going on in the complete imagination of the one writing it, and that person can very well be imagining his own universe, our universe, in a different way. Just because he refers to it as the "Galactica Universe" doesn't mean that he is imagining both our universe, and a parallel universe coexisting.

brad

Tue, 2009-02-03 16:50

I don't think you can call it "our Universe" if it doesn't have something somewhat like our Earth in it. That planet they stopped at is not our Earth. Our Earth is not, and never was a Cylon colony. You would have noticed. It could be that the story has our Earth destroyed, and recolonized by the 13th tribe, who rename it with the same name (presumably some explanation for that) and then ruin it again, but we never saw that, and we would have to go back so learn that, and apparently we don't go back there.

If you want to get technical, the planet show at the end of the 3rd season is definitely not the ruined planet (check out the Mississippi delta) but I am really to attribute that to graphics department sloppiness.

JerseyCHUD

Wed, 2009-02-04 04:47

As I've posted earlier, I believe the cylon homeworld could turn out to be our Earth, the human homeworld. It could be either in our far future or in our past. Yes, I know the arguments against it being in our past such as there having to be signs of a previous civilization in our present. However, it occurred to me that cylon technology, at least for the significant 7, is very "bio-degradable". That is, it's bio-engineered and made of flesh and would certainly leave less of a trace behind than colonial technology. Assuming not much technology survives the final battle between the human/cylon alliance and the other cylons, we could genetically end up with a situation where the "Sons of God" (cylons/colonials) intermarry with the "Daughters of Men" (possibly native humans) to create the present human race. (See Genesis 6:1-4). I'm sure there are weaknesses with this view, but with RDM's departure from pure scientific restraints then anything seems possible in his story.

Lisa

Wed, 2009-02-04 14:18

Or, as many people now believe, the “Earth” we saw is more a “new Earth” named that by the cylons who colonized it. The real Earth is still out there.

This would be consistent with TOS planet called Terra Prime.

Anonymous

Mon, 2009-02-02 00:35

Brad, a while back you posed the question "How many habitable planets", and pondered whether the colonies were planets or really just continents on Caprica...

I was watching the pilot mini series tonight, because I've wondering about that, when Adama is announcing to the crew that the colonies had been attacked by the cylons, he does in fact refer to them as planets, not continents, countries, or anything else that would suggest that the colonies were on a single planet.

So while I do stand by the idea that they landed on our Earth, it would appear that habitable planets are fairly common on the show.

brad

Mon, 2009-02-02 13:06

The original miniseries script was written as one planet, 12 nations, which is the most realistic. But then why interstellar jump ships in a fleet? So they changed it to multiple planets to be more consistent with the original series rules.

They didn't land on our Earth because this Earth was given its name by the Cylons, which is not the case for our Earth.

Unless our Earth did a zillion years ago and was recolonized and accidentally (?) re-given the same name.

JrzRob

Mon, 2009-02-02 13:25

"they changed it to multiple planets to be more consistent with the original series rules."

Original scripts are meaningless, the script that was used is the script you gotta go by, there were probably scripts where the characters had different names also, do you now accept that William Adama is really a Steve?

bad dog

Mon, 2009-02-02 01:30

If Tigh dies (I haven't seen this week's episode yet, but hope to tomorrow--Monday), I imagine just as important as him coming back is where he goes when he dies. I have a feeling there's going to be a family reunion and they come back together.

Anonymous

Mon, 2009-02-02 08:24

I am amazed that no one caught onto what Baltar said to Gaeta. I believe I overheard Baltar use the word "Redemption" to Gaeta. If he did then all bets are now off and Mr. Gaeta is the Fifth, not Ellen. After all Ellen has not been verified as the Fifth, only Saul's speculation. If you examine the Hybrid's saying with what we now know then the following would apply:

"{Obviously I think this is about Pegasis and Razor} At last, they’ve come for me. I feel their lives, their destinies spilling out before me. The denial of the one true path, played out on a world not their own, will end soon enough. {The four "Earthlings/Cylons on Galactica} Soon there will be four, glorious in awakening, struggling with the knowledge of their true selves. {This is the key, this is Tigh finding Ellen and/or Caprica Six} The pain of revelation bringing new clarity and in the midst of confusion, he will find her. {What we see now the humans and cylons working together} Enemies brought together by impossible longing. Enemies now joined as one. The way forward at once unthinkable, yet inevitable. {Here is what I believe is Gaeta} And the fifth, still in shadow, will claw toward the light, hungering for redemption that will only come in the howl of terrible suffering. I can see them all."

In the episode they went out of there way to show Gaeta really having an issue with his missing leg.

Food for thought!

ravel

Mon, 2009-02-02 08:39

I have given that some thought - and I feel that it would be a good thing if "the fifth" would not be Ellen. Now we can assume that Ellen is somehow in the plot - but how? She really seems to be the fifth, but then the fifth would not be significant at all. Or would she?

Of course, it would make a good story when Gaeta would finally realize that he is a Cylon, after all he has done against them. But does this make any sense? And, after all, there's something about Starbuck.

Personally, I would have expected some human/Cylon interaction at this point of the series, but we seem to be getting a human civil war. That is something I would have expected to get on the first or second season, but not in the last episodes. This surely (hopefully) leads to something grand - did I see a Cylon baseship in the trailer for Blood on the Scales?

I am a bit worried, there are so many plotlines to cover and so few episodes left. A human civil war is not justified plotwise unless it leads to something else than just the survivor count going down a bit.

JrzRob

Mon, 2009-02-02 10:10

Gaeta would have to have heard Watchtower, but ignored it, Ellen never made it to the nebullar to hear it.

Another thing worth looking into... I was was watching Guess What's Coming For Dinner, where Gaeta is singing, and also noticed something in Sine Qua Non, towards the end of the episode, right after Adama gets in the Raptor with Lee and Kara seeing him off, the scene cuts to Athena holding Hera, and humming a song, I'm watching Gaeta singing and Athena humming, they sound somewhat similar, similar enough, most people tend to butcher a song while humming it.

Anonymous

Mon, 2009-02-02 11:11

Gaeta not hearing the Watchtower is not a problem IF he was already "activated".

As for Athena humming the song this would perfectly fit if Gaeta was one of the five that programmed the seven.

JrzRob

Mon, 2009-02-02 13:18

There seems to be a psychic connection between the humans and humanoid cylons, they can have shared visions, among other things, that is also a possible explanation if they were humming and singing the same song at the same time.

MrD

Mon, 2009-02-02 22:27

If Gaeta is an activated Cylon, it would be completely at odds with his behavior since New Caprica.

And after what has been said by RDM and others about Ellen actually being the fifth, to make a switch now would be an unbelievable betrayal to the audience. Say what you will about the the Starbuck gag in S3 - he said she was being killed off, he DID kill her off (confirmed this season), and never said she wasn't coming back. In a game like this, lies of omission are permissable; lies of commission are not.

Anonymous

Tue, 2009-02-03 12:29

My take is folks over-reacted when Ron said Starbuck would die. American TV isn't used to this sort of device and some of the actors took it too personally. Ron's also played a part in misleading the audience and that's bitten him the ass as well. There's things about this situation that everyone needs to put their hands up to but when that's said and done we're heading into live and learn territory. If everyone is mature about it there's no need to get too upset.

Dr.Zee

Mon, 2009-02-02 12:16

Gaeta's not a cylon. "Four in the fleet."

JrzRob

Mon, 2009-02-02 13:14

But she could have been lying, she is capable of a such a thing. And she has been shown to be a little smarter than to do something like give them the names, number, and locations of all 5, giving the fleet any kind of leverage like that... She did enjoy playing head games with Roslin and Baltar.

I don't know if he's a 5th, or Cylon, or if it will be revealed that humans were created by the 5's race... But he is a main character clearly being set up for such a revelation. I predict the last option, myself.

brad

Mon, 2009-02-02 13:34

He's a secondary one, but what he's being set up for is a firing squad. (Unless the "change of heart and saves Adama" theory is correct.)

JrzRob

Mon, 2009-02-02 18:12

What makes him a secondary character? He hasn't been just some deckhand on the bridge in some time. Saul, Tyrol, and Anders were all listed as secondary characters... They are hardly that anymore. Gaeta's role has been expanding ever since the New Caprica settlement.

Dr. Zee

Mon, 2009-02-02 20:46

Gaeta, Tigh, Tyrol, Anders, et. al. are secondary characters because the actors who play those roles aren't credited in the opening titles. (I think the real showbiz term is "supporting characters.")

It has been stated on screen that Ellen Tigh is the fifth cylon. You can dream, hope, fantasize, and speculate if you want, but Ellen is the fifth cylon until proven otherwise.

JrzRob

Tue, 2009-02-03 03:46

Talk about pulling an industry technicality out of your rear. The last season and a half has focused far more on the Final 5 (Saul, Tyrol, and Anders in particular) than the Adama's, and Baltar is listed as a main character but is barely seen anymore! Gimme a break.

brad

Mon, 2009-02-02 23:10

Right, the main characters (contracted regulars) of the show are Adama, Roslin, Six, Eight, Baltar, Apollo and Starbuck. Note as well that aside from Six and Eight, these are imported (U.S and british) actors. Six, Eight and most of the other guest stars are Canadian.

Among the guest stars, Tigh has come to be close to the level of a regular, but I guess he could not negotiate a contract for himself. Helo and Tyrol have also expanded their role a fair bit, and of course for the current set of episodes, Gaeta.

Anonymous

Tue, 2009-02-03 12:24

One of the things I used to hate about US TV is how the credits would keep popping up for the first 10 minutes or so of a programme and keep knocking me out of the immersion bubble. I mean, who cares about the 10th guest star? The other thing that was laughable was the Hart to Hart style credits flashing by like a strobe because everyone and the kitchen sink had negotiated a mention.

I recall Ron grumblling about the drop from 50 to 40 minutes per hour of TV as ad breaks have got longer. I agree, 40 minutes isn't really enough for sme programming to get into its stride. It's like the difference between travelling a continent in a functional commuting car versus something with more legs. Cable promised better but they've sold out to become just a GT with a family car engine.

Lisa

Wed, 2009-02-04 14:08

Yep, I noticed Baltar used that word with Gaeta as well. As to what it means -- that could be anything. Who knows at this point?

Anonymous

Mon, 2009-02-02 14:47

I'm not sure what's more gay: Tigh throwing himself on a grenade, or bursting out of a closet screaming, "I'm baaaack!"

Life's a whirl. But, hey. That's showbiz.

eewok

Tue, 2009-02-03 15:49

does ne1 not think tht it mite of been white phos.? they were widely used in the falklands by us brits as trench clearers, very useful in FIBUA, but still widely regarded as a chemical weapon, its mainly used as a smoke flare. sal with his cylon suped up body may of survived it, but in a critical state! who knows really, all i know, is that Ive never shouted at the telle so much!!

ive only just seen it myself, its not on till today, but if gaeta is the 5th, hes doing this for only one reason, so it dont get out, because he will be shunned by all, humans hes leading and the cylons he mamed and tortured!

starbuck has to be the 5th, she had a flash back on the 13th colony, just like the others, and there wasnt a single shred of proof that the planet they landed on was infact earth, dont forget cylons can lie, maybe she was activated to take them there to destroy there moral!

the Answer

Wed, 2009-02-04 06:36

Ellen might come back only IN FLASHBACKS.

She DEFINITELY is dead and will not come back alive.

There is no resurrection facility for Final Five.

Earth was destroyed so most probably, all the resurrection centers on the planet too.

The 12 Colonies were destroyed and probably Final Five's hidden resurrection center is gone too.

((There is not other explanation that Earth Cylons who are able to age, could live 2000 years.))

Briefly there is no turning back for The Final Five.

If Saul dies in the next episode, Then good bye Colonel.

JerseyCHUD

Wed, 2009-02-04 09:41

The Final Five have no resurrection facility because "Earth" was destroyed? How, then, did the Final Five resurrect after Earth was destroyed? What if the Final Five are OLDER than "Earth" or the Colonies and do not depend on either? If you remember the "Eye of Jupiter", D'anna was transported face to face with the final five. Wherever she went, there is no reason to assume that "place" has been destroyed. I theorize that she in fact visited the Final Five's Resurrection Hub which was somehow linked to the Significant Seven's Hub. (Same "frequency"? Similar Technology?) Considering the Final Five have been through wars and still exist, I believe they put their resurrection center into permanent "jump space" so it couldn't be discovered or harmed.

Anonymous

Wed, 2009-02-04 10:03

That's a well reasoned comment. It's total speculation but one could suppose that Starbuck may have been skirting a wormhole and "jump space" may be connected with the space between life and death. This scenario fits with Final Five, Starbuck, and a bunch of other stuff. Still, we'll see.

One interesting speculation is that the Cylons discover how to have babies and the humans discover resurrection. That would throw a spanner into the works. In can see how that might appeal to Ron's techno-cheese. He's not James Cameron and BSG isn't The Terminator but I sense a hint of that style.

It has happened before, it will happen again. Or something.

JerseyCHUD

Wed, 2009-02-04 16:07

Thank you. The idea of a wormhole leading into other realms was quite prominent in Ron Moore's previous series "Star Trek: Deep Space Nine." In fact, the swirling look of the storm in BSG reminded me a lot of the DS9 wormhole. Other similarities include the Eye of Jupiter "realm" filled with a blinding white light background, with recognizable beings, which is very similar to the Celestial Temple of the Prophets in DS9. Note there was also a "chosen one" in DS9, too, which has been filled by Baltar in BSG.

BSG in many ways seems to have the best elements of both Voyager and DS9 cobbled together. There are far too many similar elements between the shows not to believe otherwise, and looking at the earlier shows can yield clues to the direction of BSG. For instance, one element of DS9 that has been only alluded to so far is the "pah wraith" element. The most likely character for this may be Starbuck who may have even been a cylon or some kind of god at one point but was "banished" from heaven. Yet she still retains her ability to download and resurrect and can enter the "white light realm" if she finds an entrance.

Anonymous

Wed, 2009-02-04 18:05

I tuned out and have pretty much forgotten DS9 and Voyager but your comment is a good catch and sounds fair enough from what I remember. I don't know what influence Space: 1999 or Blake's 7 has had on Ron but the theme and style of those programmes are playing out in BSG. It's a bit far out but Ridly Scott's "Body of Lies" strongly reminds me of his first motion picture, "The Duallists". It's been argued that we're all one trick ponies, just that some make a bigger success of it and hide it better. There may be some truth in that like there may be some truth behind Ron's doodling. What can one say? life is a mystery.

Lisa

Fri, 2009-02-06 12:31

For instance, one element of DS9 that has been only alluded to so far is the "pah wraith" element.

I like the parallels you've drawn between BSG, DS9 and Voyager. The Final Five as they appear in the Opera House (cloaked) sort of remind me of the Pah Wraith. Also, the cloaked version of the Final Five definitely remind me of the Beings of Light from TOS. Have you seen the drawings D'Anna made from her resurrection trips?

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