What is Starbuck?

Submitted by brad on Thu, 2009-02-12 15:25

Update: Well, obviously Starbuck turned out to be something quite different, though many find her nature to be both disappointing and not fully resolved. Starbuck was an instrument of Gog (God of Galactica) presumably born human, but with a special destiny in mind. Her father taught her the magic song containing the coordinates that would jump Galactica from the Colony to the Earth's moon if entered at the exact end of the battle. Oracles told her mother and her of a special fate.

Leoben also had a sense she was special, and knew her destiny was already written, yet when he saw her original body in the viper, he got scared and declared he was wrong. We don't know what he thought or what he thought he was wrong about, because his statements about her were largely true.

Gog sent a head-angel to her in the form of Leoben to convince her to embrace death, suggesting she was originally human. What she became after that, in the new body and viper, was a being that Gog seemed to make vanish into thin air once her mission was complete. She was unaware of that but became aware of it at the very end. It is unknown if she just ceased to exist, or became an ethereal being like Head Six. To all appearances, unlike Head Six, she had a very physical body, with DNA that could be tested.

The best I can conclude is that Starbuck was a capriciously used instrument of Gog who was taken to oblivion when her task was done.

Time to look at all the mysteries surrounding Starbuck. Starbuck, we are told, has had a destiny since she was born. Her mother was told this by Oracles. As a child she painted the Eye of Jupiter mandala symbol, it is tied into her brain.

Leoben thinks that both he and she have had prior lives. He tells her that her destiny is already written, and that in a previous cycle, they may have met up with roles reversed -- him as interrogator, her as prisoner.

And, of course, with the advice of a spirit guide who looks like Leoben but isn't, she flies into a storm on a gas giant, we see a viper explosion, and she returns over two months later in a brand new viper with memories and photos of a trip to Earth, long hair and special compulsions in her brain. Her old exploded viper and a burned body with her hair and dog tags is found, emitting a locater signal on the 13th colony, in fact the locater is how they get to that site.

Somebody is manipulating Starbuck and bringing about events. Somebody put visions in her mind pushing her to embrace the maelstrom and to go to the place between life and death, appearing as Leoben. Somebody put her in a brand new viper. Somebody put her old viper and a body with her dog tags on the 13th colony. Somebody gave her the compulsions and visions and the locater beacon. Is this Ellen Tigh? Somebody on her side? Somebody on another side? Whoever it is wanted to guide the Final Five to the very spot on which they died on the 13th colony, where memories would return.

So let's consider:

Everybody's a Cylon

If everybody is artificial (but most are programmed to think they are human of course) then so is Starbuck, and this could have been a download, with transfer to a new, duplicated body. The 2 month gap could be a delay in growing a fresh body (they won't have extra Starbuck bodies around) but the long hair is an interesting issue. In this case, it's really her body in the wrecked viper.

Starbuck is a special kind of Cylon

Starbuck is marked as special, so possibly while everybody is artificial, Starbuck is one of the few who is set up for a download. This is, ironically, less likely than everybody being a Cylon since I think they want to stick to there being only 12 special Cylon models living on the colonies

Update: Daniel

Many now speculate that Starbuck may be the child of Daniel, the #7 Cylon. The timing works, and would be a reason why #1 would be jealous of or hate #7. Obviously the others could not know if it. Some even speculate that the changing of Daniel's DNA means that Starbuck is a Daniel.

There is a teleporter

The FTL drives in the show are really teleporters. They seem to teleport only to the skin of the ship they are on, though how this boundary is defined is not set out. It's not much of a leap to imagine an FTL drive/teleporter that teleports a region of open space around it. The FTL drives teleport the open launch bays, so the space does not need to be fully enclosed.

We need some sort of teleporter just to have the falling viper wreckage and body of Starbuck caught as they fall in the gas giant. I suppose one could imagine a very big collector, or a tractor beam to collect the falling wreckage, but a wide area FTL seems to make more sense.

The FTL drive, as we know, makes a bright flash of light when it acts. And Starbuck, just before she explodes, is bathed in a bright white light. Many think this is also similar to the teleporter used by the Ship of Lights from the 1978 TV series. I don't expect Moore to do the exact ship of lights and the gods inside it, but he might plan a parallel to them.

Vipers, by the way, don't have FTL, so a teleporter is needed to move that new viper around, too.

Once you accept a teleporter, then of course Starbuck's living body could have been teleported out before the explosion. The body in the wreckage could be from anywhere. Duplicated dog tags are pretty easy to manage if you can duplicate a viper. We never get a good look at the blasted body, and Starbuck cremates it.

Note that Starbuck's long hair, which suggests she's been sitting around unconscious for 2-3 months, is too long for that amount of time. Human hair doesn't grow quite that fast. At the same time, the longer hair is supposed to be very obvious to the audience, so we might accept that it's overdone for that reason. The longer hair does seem to be telling us that they didn't just duplicate her 6 hours ago, matching what she remembers.

The switcheroo

Some fans have noticed the potential for a switcheroo. When Starbuck is flying and gets hit at first, her power goes out and the light in her helmet goes out. (That helmet light would not be really there but is important for a TV show.) But for some reason, the in the viper that Lee Adama catches up with, and sees explode, the helmet light is on. Is this just a continuity error? Or a sign that there is, like the phantom heavy raider, a duplicate viper? That Starbuck's viper is taken away, with her unharmed, and a ringer explodes in front of Lee?

This requires 3 vipers, by the way. Starbuck's real viper, the brand new one, and the one that explodes. That may be a bit much. It is no longer needed to have something collect the wreckage, as Starbuck's real viper can be used for that. So while it has too many vipers, this approach requires less "magic."

The visit to Earth or Earth?

Starbuck's memories, and the camera of her viper, reveal a visit to an "Earth" where she takes photos of the moon and Zodiac, and they match the Tomb of Athena. In a deleted scene, we are told that only 4 of the constellations match, but we don't learn if that means that 8 mismatch or 8 were not photographed. Leaving aside the issue that the Tomb constellations are not quite right for our sky, which Earth was she above? The real one or the 13th colony?

There is confusion because she is given pointers to both. Her new viper has a locater pointing at her old viper, which is on the 13th colony. So the powers that sent her do seem to want to guide her there, so the Final Five can revisit the site of their death 2,000 years ago.

But she also is given a vision of the Cylon battle scene (not yet happened) at the real Jupiter, which is not the same system as the 13th colony. She also gets the "triple star" vision which is highly confusing, and while I have seen some theories, it's not really clear what that's about. (Alpha Centauri is technically a triple star, but the 3rd star is very hard to see, even from the main stars of Alpha Centauri. And nothing we have seen takes place there. Michael Hall thinks she confused the sight of the sun, a jovian moon and Earth for 3 stars.)

She also gets compulsions in her brain. They tell her the fleet is going the wrong way when it continues on from the Ionian Nebula. They tell her that real hard. And they seem to lead her to the real Jupiter system, as the Demetrius is within a sublight trip of that battle, and the rendezvous point is only one jump away.

So she gets pointers to both systems? Is her pointer to the Cylon battle site just to get her there to talk to a Hybrid? If the Cylon battle site is really Jupiter, that's too much of a coincidence.

(Note: If you conclude that they are just using the star patterns capriciously, throwing in real ones sometimes and random ones other times, you could conclude that even though they showed the Earth stars at the Cylon battle site and random stars at the 13th colony, that these were in fact the same system.)

Once again, why?

While all this is difficult to pin down, we have very little information on the "why?" of all this. Guiding them to the 13th colony, or Earth, for that matter using a bizarre switcheroo of Starbuck and compulsions in her brain seems like a very strange way to do things. We don't know a lot about the motives of the string-pullers, but some possible motives include:

  • Trying to bring the humans and Cylons together
  • Trying to make the cycle of time repeat, carrying out prophecies
  • Trying to break the cycle of time

I can sort of squeeze these events into the first motive, but it's not an easy fit. There seem to be better ways to do it.

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Comments

Anonymous

Thu, 2009-02-12 23:54

Quite possibly the final five and the other seven are not natural allies. Even within each group, the line between friend and foe could be blurred (8 cylons are now human allies). The "this has happened before, and it will happen again, and again, and again" could refer to a civil war between groups of cylons. Cylons who really can't kill each other, they just keep resurrecting and carrying on with the war. While it can also refer to humanities role in this war, humanity is really just along for the ride. At first it was the 7 versus the 5. Now its the 5+3 versus 4.

I keep going back to the "visions" of Baltar. I don't think Baltar is crazy, nor do I think he's anything but human; I think he's being manipulated for one side or the other. When he does exactly what that side wants, he stops seeing visions. Same with Kara and President Roslin. I even believe that Gaeda's itching nub of a leg, could have been a form of manipulation. Possibly, it was some force manipulating humans to create the cylon models they would fight against 40 years before.

Anonymous

Fri, 2009-02-13 08:59

I've given up. There's no discernable logic behind it and there's too much deus ex machina kicking around. Interesting topic but my position after the immersion bubble burst remains "finish the damn thing".

Eric

Fri, 2009-02-13 19:11

...it will be a dramatic double-cross, and not the kind that viewers appreciate. Much was made of Starbuck and Leoben's deeply emotional reaction to finding the body, so I can't quite imagine them pulling a fake-out on that. But I do like Brad's exhaustive run down of the possibilities, and I can't currently rule any of them out for sure.

MrD

Fri, 2009-02-13 21:50

One of my old theories has been confirmed, and that will inevitably lead to another I long held.

We now know there are 13 Cylons, something I long ago predicted based on the 13 colonies and 13 Lords of Kobol.

The second, which I gave up when Ellen seemed to be the last Cylon, is that the final cylon was Starbuck's dad (if only Dirk Benedict would play him!), and Starbuck would in fact be the first hybrid.

brad

Fri, 2009-02-13 22:26

There's no reason to suspect they made 8 models because it matched the other numbers 13.

mrd

Sat, 2009-02-14 10:36

Logically, no, but there is some thematic resonance to using the 13 again and again.

Logically, there was no reason to have only 12 models. Indeed, that question - why 12?- is what got me thinking along these lines in the first place. I thought maybe there was one model for each colony, but then there was also a lost thirteenth colony, so why not a lost thirteenth model?

Carrie

Mon, 2009-03-02 14:19

It's possible. Ellen said the amniotic fluid had been tampered with, she didn't say how. What if Starbuck is a "version" of Daniel?

Lisa

Mon, 2009-02-16 10:20

As a child she painted the Eye of Jupiter mandala symbol, it is tied into her brain.

Leoben is Kara's head character, so here's the list of people we know who've seen this entity: Baltar, Tyrol, Tory, Kara. I think this entity is the one who set up the coincidence of the nova since Ellen denies having anything to do with it in No Exit:

Cavil: And now it’s a monument to your vanity. The Temple of the Five. Nice touch, the exploding star. When the star went nova, one of your children saw your faces. One of the Threes. The one who called herself D’anna? So I just - boxed her entire line.
Ellen: Boxing isn’t permanent, not like #7. You can undo it.
Cavil: It’s not likely. By planting that carnival trick to reveal your own faces, you left me no choice.
Ellen: We didn’t plant anything. We backtracked the path of our ancestors - found their temple. The one true God must have orchestrated these events.

Also, Anders saw Kara glowing just like the other three, just like the Five did in the Temple when D'Anna saw them.

brad

Mon, 2009-02-16 12:51

The final five all had virtual beings in their heads. The line was "Galen, you thought you had a chip in your head."

Adama also saw a hand reach out of the tub at the end of the first war. And Caprica Six has one of course, and Roslin had Elosha in the jumps.

The Answer

Tue, 2009-02-17 04:19

Kara is literally and certainly dead without a doubt.
This Kara is not the One we know till 3x17 Maelstrom.

So What do we know about her ??
For now, It is certain that She is not Human or Cylon.
I believe, She is some kind of special being (like a puppet) that had been sent back,
acting like Kara right now, till a certain moment that she will be activated.
So who did send her back to Colonial Fleet ?

Since there is no reasonable / possible other explanation,
IT MUST BE The 13th God ((as Pythia said The One whose name cannot be spoken))
--> who built the New Viper for Kara,
--> who made a New Copy Body for Kara,
--> who loaded mostly true and partially fake memories to this new copy brain of her.
(Fake Memories : Like Earth memories she told when she returned.
She said Blue Oceans and sky on Earth which was completely mirage as we all know.))

So the question is, why had Kara been sent back to the Colonial Fleet ??
Maybe to lure the Colonial Fleet to Earth as she programmed,
To let the Colonials see what the 13th God had done to Earth...
Or maybe Kara's mission is unrevealed so far...
Perhaps she is waiting for the wake-up call from her *designer* to execute her mission whatever it is..

Lisa

Tue, 2009-02-17 08:30

Well, I do think The One Whose Name Cannot Be Spoken is influencing events in some way. I think this entity had something to do with the coincidence of the Temple of Five and the nova as well as the change of the Temple of Hopes to the Temple of Five. Ellen claims to have nothing to do with that. Also, we do know that Starbuck is fundamentally different than both the Significant Seven and the Final Five. We still don't know exactly what the Kobolians were/are -- I think they were some kind of Cylon because that would fit with "this has all happened before" theme. I don't think it was the humans on Kobol who made toasters -- if so then why did they so quickly forget how to do that until just recently -- but rather I think it was The One Whose Name Cannot Be Spoken who made them. However, we know that the 13th Tribe was polytheistic, so maybe the break-up was triggered by their refusal to worship The One alone like the later Centurions did. Lastly, it seems very coincidental that both the Colonials and the 13th Tribe devised nearly identical Centurions without some interaction between them.

brad

Tue, 2009-02-17 12:27

This has become very confusing. The Final Five do not worship the one whose name cannot be spoken, or at least did not until they came to the 12 colonies and became monotheists. So when the "Temple of Five" was built, they were not 5 priests of this god, yet it showed their faces.

Moore said in his podcasts that the humans and gods lived in peace on Kobol, and the humans decided to be as gods and create life (Cylons).

Starbuck did not see an illusion. Both the Earth shown in Crossroads and the one in Revelations, from space, look blue and alive.

Lisa

Tue, 2009-02-17 13:42

It is very confusing. We know that the temple was originally called the Temple of Hopes and was built by the 13th Tribe on their trip to "Earth." We know that the Final Five found that temple on their return trip to the 12 Colonies. Cavil thinks that the F5 inserted the "trick:"

Cavil: By planting that carnival trick to reveal your own faces, you left me no choice.
Ellen: We didn’t plant anything. We backtracked the path of our ancestors - found their temple. The one true God must have orchestrated these events.

Ellen implies that it was the One True God who switched the temple to be the Temple of Five, not the Five themselves. At first I thought this was weird, but if the OTG is a megalomaniac who wants his creations to worship him/her saying that a temple was made to honor him/her would fit the MO. At this point, the Five were not monotheists as they didn't encounter that until they met the Colonial Toasters.

So, in the podcast Moore said that it was the humans who created Cylons -- the 13th Tribe -- and that's what got them kicked out off Kobol? That doesn't really make sense for humans to create Cylons twice and have no memory of the ones they created on Kobol. It seems more likely that The One Whose Name Cannot Be Spoken created them and that's what caused the rift. Maybe the 13th Tribe refused to worship a single god, were rejected by humans, and couldn't stay on Kobol so they left to find "Earth."

Which leads me to-- Why call it Earth at that point? Where did they get that word from? It's essentially naming a planet "dirt."

brad

Tue, 2009-02-17 16:23

The five didn't even exist until just before the war that destroyed Earth. So how is there a legend of a temple to them with the colonials, who fled Kobol around the same time? It would have to be:

  • The five are born
  • The one true god decides he will in the future make them his disciples
  • He modifies the Temple of Hopes (he has FTL obviously) to be a temple to them.
  • Word spreads in Kobol society of the new temple
  • He warns them of the war so they can survive it
  • All hell breaks loose on both planets.

Lisa

Tue, 2009-02-17 20:04

How did the Colonials find out anything about the 13th Tribe? How did they receive the Book of Pythia? Remember that Pythia is supposed to be a prophetical book, it described events before they happened. I hope it doesn't turn out to actually be prophetical because I think a supernatural explanation would be disappointing, but I don't know how they're going to explain that one.

The Answer

Wed, 2009-02-18 06:14

""I think it was The One Whose Name Cannot Be Spoken who made them (Earth Cylons)
However, we know that the 13th Tribe was polytheistic,
so maybe the break-up was triggered by their refusal to worship The One alone""

Good point Lisa.

I have been thinking the past of Humans and Cylons for some time. First of all, I strongly believe 2 things.

1) BSG will have an End, related to Religion Scriptures.

2) The Past of Humans & Cylons & Gods are most likely, as in The Silmarillion (Tolkien's legendary book)

Well I believe that,
One True God / 13th God made the Earth Cylons,
just like his 12 brothers and sisters (The 12 Gods of Kobol) created Humans.

But The Cylons refuse to believe 13th God alone, as you said Lisa.
They chosed to worship 12 Gods, just like The Colonials...
So 13th God destroyed them and their home -> Earth...

Obviously Ellen knew the forthcoming destruction of Earth while she was telling *Everything is in place*
She probably the only one who believed the 13th God... That's why she could know what's coming and survive.

After the desruction,
the War had broken out between 12 gods and 13th inevitably (we don't know how long it continued)
But eventually, The 12 Gods of Kobol had been defeated by One True God / 13th God.
((Remember the Tomb of Athena. Athena was a Kobol God (that's a fact) and is dead now... That implies which side won.))

And now...
There is another community who still believes 12 Gods which don't exist anymore, as Head 6 *Angel Of God* told Gaius.
And that community is the Colonials as we all know.
So we should be ready for another massacre I think.

The Colonials will probably be destroyed in the end by Cavills-Dorals-Simons alliance.
And probably Starbuck (The harbinger of Death) will have a crucial role in the process.

If there will be any survivors,
They might be those who were in the opera house vision --> Pregnant 6 + Hera + Baltar

Lisa

Wed, 2009-02-18 10:07

Good point Lisa.

Thanks!

1) BSG will have an End, related to Religion Scriptures.

Yes, the writers definitely need to tie (Tigh?) up all of the "supernatural" loose ends.

One True God / 13th God made the Earth Cylons, just like his 12 brothers and sisters (The 12 Gods of Kobol) created Humans.

Possibly. I like this idea. So, you think the 13th Tribe's refusal to worship The One (the 13th Kobolian) is what caused the exodus from Kobol? I ask because it's not just that the 13th Tribe left, but that the Kobolians kicked out everyone, including the humans -- who in your theory were their creations and still worshiped them as gods.

Obviously Ellen knew the forthcoming destruction of Earth while she was telling *Everything is in place*
She probably the only one who believed the 13th God... That's why she could know what's coming and survive.

Ellen wasn't a monotheist until she met the Colonial Centurions. Also, Sam never said that Ellen or Saul saw head characters. We only know for sure that Tory, Galen, and Sam saw head characters who warned them of the impending destruction. If this is a War of the Gods scenario (a title of an ep from TOS, BTW), it's possible that the other 12 Kobolians are who destroyed "Earth" and The One is who warned the Five. Or the reverse. It's hard to tell right now.

((Remember the Tomb of Athena. Athena was a Kobol God (that's a fact) and is dead now... That implies which side won.))

One of the Kobolians dying I don't think equals the other 11 losing to the 13th. Also, I still think Starbuck is some kind of Kobolian avatar, perhaps a kind of sleeper agent who wasn't activated until her "death." My preference is for Aurora since there's been so many references to her already, but it might work if she were Athena since we don't know how a Kobolian could actually die. If the Kobolians are some earlier version of Cylon, I figure a death could be something similar to how Daniel the Artist was killed. I was revisiting the New Caprica episodes and how initially the occupation team headed by Caprica Six wanted to live in peace with the Colonials in that settlement -- sounds sort of like Kobol to me (except, yanno, the planet was barely habitable unlike Kobol that was a paradise).

brad

Wed, 2009-02-18 12:03

There is a lot to be explained in 5 episodes. One thing that bothers me is that we've seen almost nothing about the Lords of Kobol for a long time. Head-Six has gone as well. The only new tidbit we have gotten is that we know the Final Five got head characters (all of them, not just 3 of them) and they are not responsible for the conversion of the Temple of Five or the star explosion. We also learn that monotheism was invented by the metal Cylons of the colonies.

While we are promised to learn something about the exodus from Kobol of the tribes, and the nature of Starbuck, we should be hearing more, not less, about the Lords of Kobol if they are going to be part of the answer.

jmp

Thu, 2009-02-19 05:58

Been thinking about this a bit and think I may have come up with something.

First off, the 'final five' are, in reality, the 'first five' - after all, they built the remaining skinjobs. We've seen that Ellen and Cavill (#1) have had a history, even potentially involving sibling jealousy (regarding the 7's) to the point of murder on Cavill's part. And we also know that Cavill boxed the first five and gave them a ringside seat to the destruction of humanity. In addition, he helped build the 2 through 8's.

So, if we assume that the first five are kinda smart (duh), and they saw Cavill's treachery coming on early (also logical seeing the murder of the 7's), what could they do to insure the survival of their plan?

They create a fail-safe. If everything goes okay, the fail-safe never engages. If things go to hell, the fail-safe is there to help put the plan back on track, regardless of the cost.

I believe Starbuck is that fail-safe. She is the best shooter, the best pilot, she's driven to do what she thinks is right REGARDLESS of circumstances (going back to get the arrow, pitching a fit about going the wrong way, etc). She is the wild card in the deck - the joker that is opposed to the thief of the plan ("There's gotta be some way outta here, said the Joker to the Thief" - All Along the Watchtower)

She ressurects, but does so from EARTH. Why is that? Because the 1-8 skinjobs don't know who she is, but they know she exists! She isn't one of them. She isn't one of the first five. No one can know who she is because they would kill her dead dead dead, or box her. The hybrids know though, although why they know is still uncertain.

To the skinjobs, she is the boogeyman - the 'harbinger of death who will lead them all to their end' - in effect, she *IS* the plan, the ultimate plan, a.k.a. the plan "B" that is used when plan "A" goes down the toilet when Cavill and the skinjobs attack the colonies.

Also, it was Starbuck who pieced together that the beacon was coming from Earth. She knew because it was HER ship sending the beacon.

This explains something that has puzzled me a while as well: Leobin's reaction when Starbuck tells him that she is the harbinger of death. He just came face to face with the cylon 'devil'.

This explains the 'destiny' of Starbuck, her estrangement from her 'mother' (who didn't really exist, but bore a strong resemblance to Ellen), her hatred of cylons in general, her willingness to do whatever it takes to get to the end of the journey, everything. She was manufactured to help humanity survive if the worst happened.

And if you want one final circumstance, in the opening scenes on the Galactica in the miniseries, SHE was the first character shown, staying in shape by running through the corridors. Usually in TV shows, the first major character you see is the most important.

I present to you, the cylon fail-safe: Starbuck - both catalyst and medium - the controller who guides humanity to its safety, frees the first five with the song (it happened right as she came back to the nebula, remember), and protector of the plan of the first five. Both 'Savior' and 'Devil' wrapped into one lil blonde with an attitude.

Anonymous

Thu, 2009-02-19 06:08

That's a convincing comment but I don't dig chicks that look like a bloke on hormones. What is it with sci-fi shows? Just because it's a woman doesn't mean she's hot. I'm not being sexist or judgemental here just pointing out that just because a human with bumps is wrapped in lycra doesn't give them a free pass.

jmp

Sat, 2009-02-21 16:48

In a bizarre way, the androgynous appearance actually supports the original theory - she can be a chick (and as we've seen, quite a cute one) or a rough and tumble warrior. Basically, a machine for all tasks. :)

Lisa

Sat, 2009-02-21 18:42

A machine who could kick your arse if you ever called her a "machine for all tasks..." to her face.

The Answer

Thu, 2009-02-19 07:01

You have a good theory really... But you lost me from the very first sentence.

""If we assume that the first five are kinda smart (duh)
and they saw Cavill's treachery coming on early (also logical seeing the murder of the 7's)
what could they do to insure the survival of their plan?""

Simply I don't assume they are smart enough, as you said.

In 4x11 and 4x15,

it turned out they are nothing more than a few refugees machine

--> who got the hell out of the Earth in the last moment,

--> who couldn't develop the FTL technology so that they came to 12 colonies 2000 years later after they left Earth.

In my opinion The F5 became extremely overrated machines who are so desperate and poor.

The Answer

Thu, 2009-02-19 07:09

Actually the biggest disappointment is; turning The FIRST 5 out to be *Good* machines.

That is the main reason for me,

why they are much less important than the 3rd season.

jmp

Sat, 2009-02-21 16:56

Regardless of whether the F5 had FTL or not, the major plot point is that they created the skinjobs with the help of the bullethead chromedomes after the first cylon war. Also, they apparently created the resurrection technology as well. So, I think that even with the flaws you've mentioned, they are quite intelligent.

Additionally, if the 13th left Kobol at the about same time as the humans left to form the colonies 5,000 years ago, AND if the cylons had no need for FTL, I can easily see a scenario where it wouldn't have been created. After all, who would have believed that we humans here haven't been back to the moon after stepping on it 40 years ago? Politics are a bitch, and the one thing we HAVE seen these cylons have is politics.

DotWrong

Sat, 2011-12-17 10:49

Not having been able to confirm it, I always thought resurrection was developed by Humans (specifically, the Elders of Kobol) three thousand years prior to the First Cylon War. The first Cylons to leave Kobol (skinjobs) took Resurrection with them and subsequently reduced to twelve models. Resurrection died as a viable technology for them as they evolved through procreation rather than organic memory transfer, but they managed to resurrect resurrection through Graystone with the covert assistance of the "Final Five". Following the rebellion and the First Cylon War, the Neo-Cylons (Toasters) took Resurrection as part of the Armistice agreement on condition that they leave Humanity alone - thus causing them to forget who made them in the first place (the skinjobs, with a little help from Graystone) and further reinforcing their idea of the One True God who blessed them with the ability to resurrect.

To clear up any confusion, I have a theory on a timeline:

>3000BCW1 (Before Cylon War One): Kobol technology is advanced to the point of humanoid cybernetics which are not only self aware but appear human and come complete with human foibles (such as paranoid delusions, psychosis and thoughts of patricide). There may have been a rebellion at this point, when the 13th Tribe (consisting entirely of Cylon skinjobs) left Kobol for Earth Mk. I.
>CW1: Daniel Graystone et. al develop robotic Cylons which resemble walking chrome toasters, mainly for military but also several lines for domestic and industrial aides. Thus the generation gap and apparent confusion in the evolution of not one but TWO entirely disparate lines of Cylon culture come into being (to later form an uneasy alliance entirely for the benefit of the Kobollian skinjobs). Graystone develops NeoResurrection as part of the development programme for his Toasters without even realising it - his dead daughter Zoe is the catalyst for NeoResurrection.
CW1: Chrome Cylons attack the 12 Colonies of Kobol, causing severe damage to the Human race - yet at the point where it seems that Humanity is about to be wiped out, the Cylons sue for peace, take NeoResurrection as part of the deal, and sail off into deep space.
40YCW1: Toaster fleet nukes the Colonies. Later the general consensus is that this was an error on the part of the misguided younger skinjobs who planned the operation.

Lisa

Thu, 2009-02-19 07:56

I've also wondered about Starbuck's connection to both a savior and a devil. What if she were actually created first instead of as an afterthought/Plan B?

brad

Thu, 2009-02-19 13:07

I definitely see the potential for there being some hidden back-up plan that the five can now make use of after getting their memories back. Whether it is Starbuck or not I don't know, but she could make sense. Could also be Daniel but the word is Daniel is a teaser for future shows (Plan/Caprica.)

Anonymous

Fri, 2009-02-20 21:22

Is it just me, or did it seem like Starbuck is the only one who can see, or hear the piano? The bartender looked at her like she was crazy when she mentioned the piano.

Alvin

Fri, 2009-02-20 22:24

Haven't seen the new episode, but i'm re-watching the series; i'm on 'Valley of Darkness' where Kara returns to her old apartment. She listens to some piano music. Helo comments 'that's not you'. She replies: 'It's my dad.'

Does she mean that literally? Is it her father playing piano? Or was it just his music? Again, don't know if the new episode explains any of this, but I found it interesting.

brad

Sat, 2009-02-21 00:19

Which feature a piano in a dream, you could be on to something.

Irish guy

Mon, 2009-02-23 14:41

I think the theory submitted by jmp is an extremely intuitive theory and it certainly works.

However one thing always gets me is Starbuck never shows her father in any dream or references him much. The medallion/eye of Jupiter and the Piano music are definitely linked back to her father therefore I don't think the final five have much to do with it. I reject the theories of Starbuck being an altered version of Daniel by Cavil to keep tabs on everything. Cavil is a skinjob and not the key to all this.

Visions, music and symbols play a big part in the path to Thrace's destiny. As they do for the final five, therefore cavil's interference or alteration with Daniel to become starbuck is not plausible.

The Hybrids speak of Thrace with caution and/or cynicism, and predate Cavil and the rest. Therefore Thrace or the origins of thrace are linked somehow to the Hybrids. What Thrace's mother plays in this is unclear, but she seems to be prophetic much like leoben. Only her father is the big mystery of Thrace's destiny thus I believe that he plays some part in the upcoming episodes especially with the piano.

Could Daniel be Thrace's father thus Thrace being a human-cylon hybrid? Possibly. The dates don't match up but the opera house visions with Hera and Hera being delivered to a cloaked figure possibly starbuck might support the idea of a natural hybrid being delivered to another hybrid.
But even that theory conflicts with other events.

Its just confusing.I really think the Earth they found is not Earth, and the body in the downed viper is not Thrace's.. I'll guess we will find out soon enough, I just hope they don't leave us hanging.

Mike

Mon, 2009-03-02 12:22

Starbuck is Artemis. End of story.

Lisa

Mon, 2009-03-02 13:30

Starbuck in some ways very much fits the Artemis archetype, but the writers have repeatedly connected her with Aurora.

One eyed Jack

Wed, 2009-03-04 04:38

I think the only sane possibility is that Kara is Daniel. "All along the watchtower" is the fail safe put there by the final five. This fail safe also aplies to the later human looking cylons.

Here are some theories I don't buy:

1. Kara is the 'fail safe' and she is not Daniel.

If Kara resurrected at Earth where did she get her new viper from? How and why did the crashed viper get to earth with Kara's body - her viper exloded in the athmosphere of another planet?

2. Kara is not cylon.

Kara died. That is so obvious that people tend to ignore it. She even burned her old body. Kara is a cylon.

SO. Here is my theory.

***Cavil and his petty revenge***

Kara is Daniel and the prime target of Cavils personal vendetta. Cavil wanted to give the final five "front seats in the apolypse" and why? To prove he is right. He was ready to destroy entire sivilization to prove a point. So do you really think this kind of personality would ONLY kill someone that made him jealous like the model 7? No. He took Daniel for himself for a 'special' treatment. He wanted to ruin and corrupt Daniel. Daniel was gentle and artistic so Cavil rigged that personality to find peace only in killing and violence. He made the other models believe that Daniel was no more and either erased majority of memories about him/her from the other models or changed Daniels appearance or even gender. Then Cavil put her back in Caprica with false memories and preprogrammed urge to someday find Earth. Cavils ultimate revenge - futile journey towards a radioactive rock that would lead to final destruction of human race thus crushing Kara/Daniel personality for ever.

***Cavil, Starbuck and Earth***

How did Cavil do it? When the time was right Karas preprogrammed self destructive visions started. She had to die so that Cavil could have his hands on her. Finally she is lead to her death and her viper explodes. She is revived in the resurrection ship, taken to Earth, put to a viper (made by cylons) and launched to earth. After she has had time to make some observations her ship is shot down and she dies again. Why? As far as I know, cylons can't edit memories or personality of another cylon as long as they are in their bodies. So Cavil needs Kara back in the resurrection ships memory banks to reprogram her and wipe some memories. Then they jump back to Galactica and Kara is shown parts of the journey to make it more real and complete the plot. This theory explains both Karas first death and the fact that her body and viper are found on Earth.

Piano playing man BTW is Karas projection and based on the FALSE memories of her dad. Kara has no dad as we do.

***Future and the 'fail safe'***

When the final five realized what Cavil was up to they installed a fail safe system. The fail safe is manifested as the rock song "All along the watchtower". This fail safe is a trigger that brings back their memories of themselves. BUT it is also a trigger to the younger models. This is proven by the fact that Kara hears it too. With younger models it will do other things.

What happened because Tigh obeyed the order "stay with the fleet"? His child died AND Hera was kidnapped. Hera is now taken to Cavil. She knows THE SONG which she showd to Starbuck too. What will happen when Cavil hears some Jimi Hendrix? Shutdown?

One eyed Jack

Wed, 2009-03-04 06:12

The only other good theory is that Baltar is Daniel. His personality would fit and Cavill would surely get lot's of joy in putting gentle Daniel to destroy all humans. Baltar has had a dream in which he woke up in resurrection ship. This could be due to the fact that when the bombs hit Caprica he died with Caprica Six and actually went through the experience. Cavill then returned him to the planet with cleaned memory to 'escape' with the Fleet. Baltar is also projecting almost ALL the time and everywhere both people and cylons are drawn to him.

But if this is true we are faced again with the same question: Who is Kara?

If Baltar is Daniel there are really few honourable ways to explain Kara plotwise and it makes me feel worried - as far as I can see they seem to have written themselves into a corner.

It would be sad if this series would end in a logical impossibility or the plot problems would be solved with 'deus ex machina' super God or alien race.

zach

Wed, 2009-03-04 07:01

Oh, I'd love to see that, but if it were so, wouldn't Ellen now recognize Baltar as Daniel?

One eyed Jack

Wed, 2009-03-04 07:09

No, she would not if Cavil has changed Daniels looks and personality. And even so, Ellen doesn't remember everything even if she thinks she does. Why would she be interested to hear what Anders has to tell if she would?

Anonymous

Wed, 2009-03-04 07:25

Seriously, why is the question of "Who is Kara?" so important? Was it crucial for the resurrection of Gandalf in LOTR, or Sheridan in BB5?

I personally believe that the only answer we'll get from the show is that she will lead the fleet to a new home, she will take the role of Goddess Aurora (in a literal sense or symbolical sense)and that's the only thing that was important, for the story, of her resurrection.

Lisa

Wed, 2009-03-04 07:35

The only other good theory is that Baltar is Daniel. His personality would fit and Cavill would surely get lot's of joy in putting gentle Daniel to destroy all humans.

How does Baltar's personality fit Daniel's? All we know about Daniel is that he was an artist and so conceivably a sensitive guy. Baltar, IMO, is a self-absorbed opportunist who has displayed no artistic ability at all -- unless you count grifting people into believing in you as an artistic ability. Baltar is fascinating, but I don't see what he has in common with Daniel. As far as Starbuck being Daniel goes, they've already switched this character's gender once, I'm not sure they'll do it again. That might make Dirk Benedict happy though.

One eyed Jack

Wed, 2009-03-04 07:48

If Daniel is Baltar then Baltars personality is Cavills distorted and jealouys version of Daniel. Baltar is the hatefull caricature of an artist made by Cavill - endlessly self absorbed and vain (corrupted data). BUT still Baltar is incredibly creative and a genious: brilliant scientist, philosophist and speaker. And almost anybody that meets him has great difficulties in resisting his weird (if somewhat twisted) charm. And he is fragile too. After all it's quite safe to say that his experiences have made him go insane. That would fit Cavill just fine.

Still I do hope that Kara is Daniel. That would fill up most, if not all, plot holes without the need to trump up something completely new in the remaining 3 episodes.

Lisa

Wed, 2009-03-04 09:03

Possibly. I don't quite equate the kind of creativity Daniel seemed to have with the kind of creativity Baltar has. It's an interesting idea.

I'm intrigued, though, by what may have happened to Daniel after Cavil's attack if there was anything left of him. For a long time he could have existed as some non-corporeal AI in the Cylon infrastructure. We're told that even the goo they're patching the Galactica with is sort of alive, so I think it's possible within the framework of the story. This would be quite ironic for Cavil as Daniel existing as "pure energy" seems to be what Cavil wants and in this state Daniel likely would not have a name. If we run with the "they're all Cylons" idea, then that means Daniel can manifest/project as a head character to anyone. Creating offspring would be a matter then of writing new AI code and modeling it in some genetic material from a donor -- like Socrata Thrace. I know it's kind of an "out there" idea, but we're looking for an entity who can manipulate space-time and who can manifest in numerous ways. This would also lend a mythological component to Starbuck's birth.

We've been referring to this entity as the "String Puller," but Kara uses another name:

"If you want to be an immortal composer, you better learn how to play that thing first."

The writers are not looking for a technobabble explanation and had been told early on to increase the religious elements of the show, so I think the idea of an Immortal Composer writing a "song of creation" works well with that. Maybe the song from the last time around was Along the Watchtower, but Daniel/Dreilide is still working on the writing the song for this turn around and that's the song that Starbuck helped him with?

Anonymous

Wed, 2009-03-04 09:14

I am pretty sure that Starbuck was imagining him playing the song wrong was because she was trying to remember it. It is a good theory, but I am pretty sure the point was that he was trying to play All Along the Watchtower and was getting it wrong until the two them came together and the notes wrote themselves, so to speak.

zach

Wed, 2009-03-04 07:24

... because when Ellen said Cavil had corrupted Daniel's data, I took it to mean Cavil had rendered the data unusable, but you are right, that could also mean he changed Daniel's personality.
Interesting theory.

Derek

Wed, 2009-03-04 09:20

Are people assuming Ron Moore has abandoned the notion that Baltar and Starback are "the same", whatever that meant? I am just curious because Moore certainly said that close to the end of season 3 when it was confirmed her death was only temporary and these theories with Daniel and Baltar and Starbuck seem to all leave someone out. Have people assumed that has changed and is there a new interview, or statement which shows that they have abandoned this for those of us who missed it. Unless of course it comes from a spoiler site like Patriot Resource, in which case I am fine with not knowing.

Gorgones

Wed, 2009-03-04 10:59

I also agree with JMP.. my theory is similar in a lot of ways, but goes a step further.

Starbuck was created by the final five as a failsafe. While on the Colonies, prior to the attack, they would already have known that Cavil was willing to, and capable of destroying the Colonies. If that happened, they knew they would need something (specifically, someone) to get everything back on track… that their plan would survive with or without them. So, they ‘programmed’ Kara to be the arbiter of the human salvation. This is supported by the fact that Kara is in many ways, a perfect warrior. She’s cold, hard, and a skilled leader and pilot. Additionally, she always seems to do what’s right no matter what the risk or cost (she stands up to Adama, goes nuts when they are traveling away from Earth, she follows her visions of the Eye of Jupiter to her death, etc.). Her death (and resurrection) is what eventually brings the fleet to Earth, which ultimately leads to the Final (First) five regaining their memories.

The hybrid told Kara that she was the harbinger of death, but wasn’t specific as to who’s death. We (as did she) took it to mean the death of the humans, but it most likely refers to the demise of the Cavil-led Cylons (her mission). As jmp also said, and I agree, this explains why Leoban reacted so strongly to her (shocked, afraid) on Earth when she told him what the Hybrid told her—he knew he was looking into the eyes of the end of the Cylons.

Now.. her origin. I think it’s clear that #7 Daniel was her father. Now, Kara remembers her mother as being an angry drunk. This could have either been a foster mother (which would explain her mother’s distance) OR they could be mis-recalled or implanted memories. Memories of a strong, stern, alcoholic mother. This reminds me of Ellen. We know that Cavil was jealous of Daniel for his closeness to Ellen. Perhaps Ellen and Daniel are the parents of Starbuck. They had mentioned that the Cylons had the ability to reproduce without resurrection on Earth…perhaps Ellen was the last Cylon mother…another reason that Cavil would covet and shut-down Daniel. It was jealousy of Ellen’s love and the ability to have a child that drove Cavil to do what he did.

So, Daniel and Ellen hid their child away from Cavil (perhaps with a foster mother who’s involvement in the military would influence Kara’s decision to be in the military, the best role for her to carry out her destiny). The final five programmed Kara, and themselves, with Daniel’s song to both activate themselves and establish themselves as an ally to Kara (knowing that her life experiences would likely make her very anti-Cylon). This is not only important because it allies her with the Five, but also because it helps her come to grips with what she really is…a born Cylon. This also explains why from the hospital, Anders saw her glowing white with the rest of the Cylons and perhaps even why she would have fallen in love with him in the first place (they would have known that she would be safer under the protection of one of their own.)

Starbuck being a Cylon and the last ditch effort of the final five (who perfected resurrection technology) makes it very easy to believe that the Final Five left some mechanism in place on Earth to bring her back to life so that she could return to the fleet and lead them to Earth so that, as I mentioned before, she could awaken the Final Five, and also demonstrate to the human fleet that they could not rely on Earth as their new home and that they would have to keep searching.

I again, agree very much with jmp, Starbuck is the backup plan, the wild card. She’s the “Joker”. “There’s got to be a way out of here, said the Joker to the Thief. There’s too much confusion. I can’t get no relief.”- All Along the Watch Tower. The song is about Starbuck and establishes her as the tortured trailblazer that will lead the humans to their new life.

Thoughts?

One eyed Jack

Thu, 2009-03-05 05:57

If Starbuck died in Eye of Jupiter why is her crashed ship and body found on Earth?

I'd like to hear a theory that doesn't ignore this fact, because this is one of the main reasons that makes me think that Kara is Daniel and she was used by Cavill to lead people to Earth.

"demonstrate to the human fleet that they could not rely on Earth as their new home and that they would have to keep searching."
So to demonstrate that its not useful to search for Earth or go there, the Final Five make people search for Earth and go there. Im sorry, but I cant see the logic in this.

Also if Kara would have been consieved in a "natural" way she wouldn't be able to resurrect because there wouldn't be any extra bodies for her to occupy. Unless Daniel and/or Ellen made, after she was born, a whole line of Karas waiting in some resurrection facility. This would plotwise annoy the hell out of me.

BTW Im not sure how many of you know this, but its been said that Bob Dylan is singing the verses in "All along the watchtower" in reversed order. So the story in the song actually goes like this:

All along the watchtower, princes kept the view
While all the women came and went, barefoot servants, too.
Outside in the distance a wildcat did growl,
Two riders were approaching, the wind began to howl.

"No reason to get excited," the thief, he kindly spoke,
"There are many here among us who feel that life is but a joke.
But you and I, we've been through that, and this is not our fate,
So let us not talk falsely now, the hour is getting late."

"There must be some way out of here," said the joker to the thief,
"There's too much confusion, I can't get no relief.
Businessmen, they drink my wine, plowmen dig my earth,
None of them along the line know what any of it is worth."

Does this bring anyone any new ideas?

Anonymous

Thu, 2009-03-05 06:40

Don't you realize that we won't get a definite answer to that question? Starbuck's death/resurrection isn't a scientific fact, it is archetypical narrative used in myths throughout the centuries, phoenix or the resurrection of a dying hero, such as Sheridan in BB5/Gandalf in LOTR. Sure it brings BSG closer to fantasy.

BSG isn't hard scifi, it is naturalistic scifi, referring to the look and feel.

One eyed Jack

Thu, 2009-03-05 08:50

Actually Sheridan and Gandalf both "raised from the dead" by a specific reason that followed the internal logic of the story. Sheridan was revived by Lorien and Gandalf was brought back through the will off Eru.

I have no problem if ir turns out that Kara was resurrected via divine intervention. But it still has to obey the internal logic of BSG story or its not a decent myth or satisfying to me as a viewer and makes me feel that the writer has just gotten lazy. BSG is so absolutely brilliant that I cant believe they would just pass by the fact that Karas viper and body were found on Earth.

After all there wouldnt be any reason to speculate with future events if future events will not follow any kind of logical pattern or take into consideration what has happened before. It would also make following the series pointless.

I'll make a bet: If it wasnt Cavill who delivered Kara to Earth from resurrection ship after she blew up in the Eye of Saturn, I will come back here and write 20 times in different ways to make copy/paste impossible the phrase "Im just a poor and a silly toaster."

New thory just popped into my mind recently. What if Baltar and Kara are both Daniel?

Lisa

Thu, 2009-03-05 08:59

Yeah, Cavil probably used whatever they took from Starbuck in "The Farm" to make a clone of her. He'd still have to download her memories though.

Bobby

Sat, 2009-03-07 11:41

There you have. Reincarnated human. Science is out, divine intervention is in. Don't expect to see a realistic Earth story now.

roger

Sun, 2009-05-10 07:33

New Series--Caprica.

Zoe creates a Zoe that "feels" real, thinks like Zoe, almost believes that she is Zoe while knowing what she really is. BSG is decades beyond (technology too?) that time...what if a Graystone or someone else is responsible for creating a new Starbuck?

Zog the Obvious

Wed, 2010-09-08 18:16

"Because that part of you is gone. I told you when I first came aboard this ship that you had changed. I look at you now. I don't see Kara Thrace. I see an angel blazing with the light of God, an angel eager to lead her people home. Angel."
- Leoben, to Starbuck; on Demetrius

She remembers it again when she jumps the ship.

Angel.

M40

Wed, 2012-11-21 07:01

The signs are all there that Kara Thrace is an 'angel'. Signs of this go WAY back in the series. Probably the first hint was when Thrace gave commander Adama the little 'angel' icon to put on as the figurehead of his model ship. Sort of a giveaway there, eh? A little foreshadowing? The 'angel' to lead the 'ship'? Kara IS that angel.

Add to this, Baltar's angel in the form of a '6', and 6's angel taking the form of Baltar. These 'angels' act as guides to their destinies. They can see (and hear, touch, smell, feel, etc) these 'angels' while others cannot. Is Kara an 'angel' that everyone can see? An angel to lead them to their destiny? Two thousand years after the death of Baltar and 6, we see these two angel guides walking the streets of modern day earth... watching the seeds of the cycle beginning again.

PS - The 'cycle' as we see it in the show repeats every 2000 years or so: People create robots. Robots become more and more advanced until they become self-aware 'cylons'. The cylons begin creating more cylons. They strive to create the 'perfect' cylon, and thus create ever more 'human' machines. The point is reached when these machines are indistinguishable from humans (and can indeed breed with humans). War is waged until all are wiped back into the 'stone age'. Humans (who are actually 'cylons') evolve until they again begin to make robots. Repeat cycle. The evidence is there in the show that this happened on original earth 2000 years before, on the 12 colonies in the present, and 2000 years in the future on present 'earth'. Who created whom?

Mary

Sun, 2016-12-04 18:07

Starbuck is just Starbuck. She has many cyclones trying to reap the benefits and do anything to harm her. Daniel is a enemie of her. ( True Fact) when Starbuck was a little girl, Daniel NOT STARBUCK seize prey, taken by force when Starbuck was sleeping. She has done no wrong or harm to anyone nor wants to. Round it out, ten years later he finds her on social networks and disguises himself as (Let just say, A JOHN DOE) and Starbuck unaware and oblivious to the reality was dosed with a sedative again while sleeping. Starbuck is tough and is thankful for her family that raised her and feels responsible for the loss of her father. Starbuck puts herself around Daniel who trys to make himself untraceable because of who he really is, Starbuck hoping the truth is revealed to society and punished. Starbuck is not the only victim. Starbuck has done things she's not proud of, yes but never anything to cause harm or against any laws. Starbuck wanted to be a advocate of the law but things got in her way. Starbuck is number 6. Sexy in her own way. She is a little rebel too but never lied, never hurt, never caused harm, loves the planet's sun moon and stars, just has a great big giant wall that people built for her and continues to build.

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