I both buy and sell and this has raised some interesting thoughts to me. Now that PayPal has been integrated into eBay, why should sellers be able to give negative feedback when buyers can pay via a tracked method? I mean, say when you list the item, you specify that payment must be made via PayPal within three days of the auction ending. If that happens, then the seller should NOT be able to leave bad feedback.
Does that make any sense to anyone?

something should be done, i agree---double-blind is a good idea, if there is a time limit beyond which feedback can't be left. i have three negatives now, all from sellers who didn't like that i left them negative feedback that they deserved. Out of the 1500-odd feedbacks I have that works out to a 99.8 per cent positive rating for me, but it still sucks! The most recent one was the worst--CHELSEA'S TRADING POST--charged me double on shipping, and even though I paid him right away, I did ask (after I paid) if it had really cost that much to ship. I got a nasty reply via email and dropped the issue. Then, it took weeks for the item to arrive. So I gave the guy a neutral--and he turned around and gave me a negative, saying I hadn't wanted to pay. Which was a total lie, since I had sent him payment that day. I looked at his feedbacks and saw that he'd done that to at least five other ebayers who all left him neutrals, and he gave them negatives. There really should be some recourse against people like that.

Hello, I am an eBay seller, and I leave feedback only after it is left for me. Here's why: On no less than three occasions, buyers made unreasonable requests, or expected a brand new item when it was very clearly stated as used. in one case, the buyer tried to tell me he had the item repair and wanted $40, the high bid was $25. I had to cave in to these requests to keep my 100% rating intact, costing me time & money. When I finally received my first neg, (retaliatory) it was actually a relief. Feedback left for a seller first states: "I am satisfied & this transaction is closed". In my book, no feedback is a transaction still open, and open to feedback extortion. Ultimately most eBayers can see a vengeful/idiotic/impatient buyer or seller by spending 5 minutes looking at feedback left & received.

Edited: Brad, please delete my first post. Thank you!

I have been selling and buying on ebay for years now and I have 100% positive in the 3 digits and great comments (not counting the endless number that never do leave feedback and not because they are unhappy, they just don't care as they will never sell or buy much on ebay anyway). Not everyone who is honest has "realistic" amounts of negatives (ie does not engage in fruad). I have seen people in the 4 digit feedbacks with 100%! If they were not honest sellers, then someone with small feedback rating (that does not care as they will just make a new id) would have given them a negative by then. No one is forcing people to buy one ebay. Yes some of the best deals are there, but there are other way to get things if you hate ebay that much.
Also, I have to say that fees for ebay and paypal are WAY TOO HIGH. And they get higher by the day it seems. ebay gets more business, fees go up! Compare the ebay Australia fees for things like cars and trucks to ours. Even with the exchange rate the way it is, they pay MUCH less on those and even standard items! UNFAIR! I think as ebay gets bigger and more tranical, then someone will mount a real alternative that will pull away ebay business. I would like to see a low flat listing fee for all items. ebay would still make money as they would have that damn final value fee, but at least it would be easier on sellers if the item did not sell. OR, fees would only take effect if the item sold; not sure what that would be like. Anyway on to the real issues:

Yes, some feedback could be too high as people don't want revenge feedback. However, there are many sellers, who like me, are honest.
Anyway, I don't leave feedback unless the buyer does first. Look, to expect the seller to leave feedback first as soon as payment arrives is lunacy. If I send off an item after payment is made, and some little idiot buyer thinks it's not what he/she paid for (buyers over react on even little things) then they give me a negative because they don't have anything to lose at that point, as I have given them positive first. Is that fair if the item is good and just the buyer wants to be an @#$? No, it is not. A seller MUST have a way to make an unhappy buyer step back, think, and try to resolve the issues with the item before they go off half cocked and leave a negative. But, I agree that buyers have it bad too; leave a neg. for an seller who will not help resolve the issue and whack, you get a unjust negative in return.

I have all sorts of rules stated in my auctions that state that the buyer should contact me before a negative (and then I leave a negative for them in return if I think they deserve it). As someone who has been threatened several times with a negative (people need read the description!), and who cares about a 100% positive, I have worked and resolved every case to buyer satisfaction.
It is not a perfect system; I received a slip from my shipper for duty and GST fees for an item to Canada months after the delivery of the item. I know that the feedback for the item is still active and so I will have to wait to send a letter to the buyer indicating that he owes me the fees; as it is stated the customs fees are the buyers problem and not mine.

I say better no exchange of feedback rather than leave myself open to unjust negatives.

You could have a system where if the seller wants the positive that the buyer has already left then they must leave a positive for the buyer. If the buyer leaves a negative, then it will show up after a certain amount of time. The only way it would not show up, would be as in other ideas, if the issues was resolved and the buyer elected not to have the pending neg. show and changed to a positive for example. The seller could still leave a neg in return, and this is not a perfect system like any other, but it would help to get sellers to remember to leave that positive in return for the positive left for them byt the buyer. This would also maintain the protection the the seller must have from buyers who need to stop and think before they act.
Will this or another reasonable system protect buyers from low feedback users who don't care about the rating? No, and the current system will not either. I require a, like many sellers, to have a minimum feedback rating in order to bid without contacting me and explaining that they have looked and understand all the rules, etc. So far this has worked.

You could have a device that would be separate of feedback in the users feedback profile and would not count on the rating. It would be an area that you could leave a comment (about a paragraph) on the experience with the other user and once the buyer posted in this area, both the seller and buyer would not be able to leave any feedback. The other user would have the opportunity to leave a comment in return in this area. All the comment would show up on both the buyer and sellers profiles. Each user would only get one comment per transaction. If they buyer did not post in the "alternative area" then they would have to option to leave a negative and seller in return. This could be coupled with the idea that unless the seller leaves a positive in return for the buyer, then the positive that was left for the seller would never show. This sounds like a somewhat "better" system, but I am sure it is not perfect and has some flaws somewhere.

Have I been scammed? Yes several times! One was when I was newer to eaby. I paid for Capcom arcade system parts and never got the item. I e-mail and e-mailed, but I never got it and I never left feedback. I try to look at the feedback of people now and compare feedback for items that are like the one I want to bid on. I think this gives me an idea of what to expect for a item from a certain buyer on the basis of what she/he has sold in the past.

You know, if you look at all the bootleg anime CD's and DVD's on ebay you get an idea of what ebay will allow! These are HK rips or ones made with a DVD-R copy system; ANYONE, EVEN NON-OTAKU, can spot these fakes. You would think that ebay would start removing them, but they don't and it is because they do make money off fakes! I have sold some Unix tapes that were the "real deal" and ebay came a took them off because they said they were "beta ware". Beta ware? they had to be kidding! So they end up removing that stuff, but not the really illegal items, what's up with that? I also think that large sellers that sell fakes get a "pass". ebay knows they make allot of money off these large volume rip-off sellers and for that they get a pass. You know what I am talking about! And many of them have a pile of negatives, but they still get a pass as fraud does pay on ebay.
Is any feedback system going to take care of these issues without punishing honest sellers and buyers? NO! ONLY EBAY can stop this crap by removing sellers who are by far and away frauds (but some of my and other ideas will keep the fraud down to a lower level). Still that won't stop them from just starting over on ebay, except they won't have much feedback.

As far a sniping; sure it would be great if I was selling an item for it to extend as long as bids happen. BUT, as a buyer who does not want to have to pay a jacked up price becasue the auction extends forever I say stay with the current system. If you extend, only the one with the deep pockets will have the final bid. With a ending time in place it treats everyone more fairly; deep or shallow pockets.

I wonder what it would be like if google started auctions?

I am a Ebay buyer and seller. From a buyers point of view it is quite simple, bid and pay for your item promptly and then upon receipt, if you are happy, leave positive feedback for the seller, in 9 out of 10 cases feedback will be left for you the next day. If you are not happy contact the seller ASAP to advise, and if you bought your item from a member with a high positive feedback ratio, who has been a member for a couple of years, then you should have no problems getting the matter resolved amicably. If this fails contact paypal (within 30 days) to initiate a complaint, Paypal are very good and are always act in the buyers favour, in 9 out of 10 cases if you get no suitable answer from the seller, paypal will automatically refund you your money. ALL I WILL SAY IS THAT PEOPLE DO NOT READ THEIR EBAY ADVERTS PROPERLY OR ASK THE SELLER ANY QUESTIONS PRIOR TO BIDDING, and if buyers would adhere to the above two points their ebay experience will go smoothly.

The system should be changed alright. More stern criteria.

Sellers: Cannot sell an item the following day till feedback is left for the last payment experience(s). This must also be prior to shipping the item with a recorded date that MUST be entered. No trouble for a power seller since most use automated programming anyways. They simply won't be able to put in the next day's auctions till the bids are won for the previous batch. This also forces them to keep a tally so they dont send the wrong item.

Buyers: Must leave feedback before being able to bid on a next item. This expires in 90 days, only then allowing the buyer to bid on the next auction but, NOT leave feedback on the previous auction

eBay can't improve the feedback system because of legal liabilities. Yes, the current system has problems but if eBay interfered with the system it would be open to lawsuits, and I guaranty that zillions of people would sue over undeserved (in their minds, at least) negative feedback. Compare eBay to Match.com, which has no feedback system. None of the personal ad websites have feedback because it's a huge legal problem. Also because personal ad websites make money by selling illusions (making you think you'll meet Mr. or Ms. Right but you never do) not real goods, but that's another issue.

As one who only buys on ebay(sine 1999), I found early on that honest, negative feedback produces a retaliatory response. So, I only leave positive feedback for good transactions(98%+) and no feedback for bad experiences(more often than not undisclosed, exhorbitant s$h, now there's an area Ebay needs to fix, but that's a different topic). I always examine sellers feedback prior to bidding and find it fairly easy to determine "real" vs "retaliatory" negative feedback, usually by the sellers response(I don't bid if seller is rude or appears fraudelent or has no customer service approach). The only change I would like is to see the number of items (bought or sold) where no feedback is given, that would help me eliminate probably the 1% of sellers who get no feedback from me.

Both myself and my partner (using our respective Ebay accounts) buy and sell on Ebay. Without exception we leave feedback upon payment when selling. We describe our goods honestly, with pictures of the actual item, do not spam alternative brands into the description for better coverage, and charge postage and packing at cost.

We both have 100% feedback. Should the buyer have a problem with any item we sell (unlikely), we would work to resolve the issue. Should they then still leave negative feedback so be it. We are happy to take the risk to make Ebay a better more honest place. Our feedback is entirely gained by buyers satisfaction with our item and conduct, not through fear of us leaving negative feedback for them.

I'm convinced Ebay have no intention of making anything safer, or more accurate. Search Ebay for 'GHD Straighteners', and note the 80% that aren't really GHD brand. Now report the offending listings to Ebay and wait for the result (usually nothing, the dishonest trader carries on as before). As long as Ebay get their cut at the end of the day I don't think they're overly worried.

As buyers, when we come across the odd Ebayer who does not leave feedback upon very prompt payment, we give them a nice reminder that we were about to leave feedback but notice that they had not yet got round to leaving theirs yet. Should they refuse to leave feedback first (some do) we leave neutral feedback stating the reason.

This is what Ebay has to say on the issue here: http://pages.ebay.co.uk/help/ebayexplained/selling/index.html

"Once the sale is complete, leave feedback for your buyer and encourage them to do the same for you."

Let's make Ebay a better place!

I also feel that is wrong of ebay to allow a non-paying bidder to leave feedback. I have worked hard for my rating. And just today I had it tarnished because I reminded a buyer that he needs to pay for the item he bid on. Instead of contacting me-the buyer left me negative feedback. When I contacted ebay, they said there is nothing they can do. I dont understand why I have to take negative feedback on someone who decides not to pay for an item. And then ebay will not give me back my orginal listing fees-only the final fees. So this lousy buyer costs me money and ruins my feedback rating. Something needs to be fixed

I recently purchased a "new, unopened, OEM" toner cartridge. When received, notice the factory sealed bag was opened, but the factory strip was still in place, thus I thought "probably not a issue". I prep'ed and installed the new cartridge, tried printing a couple of pages to confirm everything worked. Shortly there after, I left positive feedback to the seller.

Well, next time I use the cartridge, a week later, I start getting terrible gray bars on the print out. Confirmed it was the cartridge by using my previous, weak but still usable unit.

Frustation and issue really started when I contacted the seller. He refused to offer any resolution only to say he was not a "retail store" and could not take it back, exchange it or offer any refund. The seller listed specific details about what you can expect for quality and performance, neither of which held true.

Looking for resolution, I went to eBay and found there was no way possible for my premature "positive" feedback to accurately reflect the real outcome of the transaction. The only option offered was to withdraw the feedback description, leaving the "positive" rating intact.

Makes you wonder just how many times this situation has occurred. Probably not enough for them to correct, since their policy doesn't deal with it.

Currently pursue dispute resolution/mediation via ebay on this. First time I had a problem, and geez, it is a real eye opener. Finding out the buyer has very little real recourse.

jkevinadams@yahoo.com

I have a 98.7% rating currently. what would many of you say is a good feedback rating?
i mean---how low does one's feedback have to be to where it is considered "too low"?
would someone not trust someone with a 98.7% rating?

Very interesting insights above....

I've been a small time buyer for a few years. Always had a good experience, left positive feedback and had a 100% score. Recently had a situation with a seller who ended up leaving retaliatory negative feedback. I spent some time looking through the seller's feedback history, even looking at his buyers' history. This seller habitually defrauds buyers and then uses retaliatory feedback to coerce the buyer into removing negative feedback against him. Went to eBay's so-called "safe harbor" with proof of my issues with the seller and the seller's own words were proof the negatives he posted were retaliatory. The seller's eBay totally protected the buyer. In other words, they did nothing.

This experience was a real eye-opener to me. I have been basing my purchase decisions on sellers' feedback scores. I had no idea these scores are so unreliable. I believe this is totally fraudulent on the part of eBay. They are holding this feedback system out as the reason wwe should trust sellers, but the system has little to no basis in truth.

I suspect there are many, many people out there who have had actual monetary losses from this behavior. This is the material huge class action law suits are made of.

Any class action lawyers out there? I'm willing to sign on as a plaintiff. This might be the only way to get eBay to look up from their wallets.

Stephen

Please replace:

"The seller's eBay totally protected the buyer. In other words, they did nothing."

with

"eBay totally protected the seller. In other words, they did nothing."

Stephen

Hi - Can someone confirm that it is possible to leave feedback after the expiry date? I am a seller with 100% positive feedback (over 350) and have recently avoided giving a negative to a complete @$$hole who won one of my auctions, didn't pay and then sent rude emails because I don't want my 100% rating ruined by retaliation from him. My plan is to leave him a negative just before the 90 expiry runs out, but I want to be sure that he can't retaliate after I do that. Can someone clear this up?

Many thanks,

Sam.

This listing is an example of how ebay doesn't care.
http://cgi.ebay.com/Battlezone-Full-Size-Arcade-game-With-Manuals-Pa-NR_W0QQitemZ6225644339QQcategoryZ13716QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

Here, the seller clearly states that he will add $5.00 for paypal payments because of their "high fees". That is cleary, unequivocally, stated as a violation of eBay's listing policy. I ratted on him, but the eBay police have done nothing.

To the sellers (other than Tucker, who seems to have it right):
When the buyer pays, you should give them positive feedback immediately. In the case of the couple a-hole buyers who complain, well that's what the feedback system is for. Do your best to make them happy. You should *always* allow returns if it is remotely reasonable. This is statistically proven to boost your sales. I pass over *any* listing which says "no refunds" or "as is" with no guarantee. Why would I buy from somebody who doesn't stand behind what they sell. Remember, the foundation of ebay is *money*. Once the buyer has paid, they have paid you *money*. They have done their part. Give them positive feedback. You have nothing to worry about if you haven't created unrealistic expectations for an item. Sellers who leave me positive feedback right after I have paid will likely never get a negative from me. I will always try to resolve an issue through them first. Also, You have an obligation to create realistic item descriptions. If you sugar-coat a listing to possibly boost the profit, you are also increasing your risk of negative feedback from a overly-sensitive buyer.

My Vote:
I think the double-blind feedback idea is great. No, the system would not result in legal battles. Plenty of people get undeserved negative feedback currently, and there is no legal basis for anyone to sue.

Another option is an "automatic payment rating" that gets posted automatically through paypal once the buyer has paid. Buyers who pay within a few hours would get an "excellent", then a "great", etc... At least sellers would know that the guy pays on time, but may be a pain in the a#$ after receiving the item.

The bottom line is IN NO CASE SHOULD THE BUYER LEAVE FEEDBACK BEFORE THE SELLER. THE SELLER SHOULD ALWAYS LEAVE FEEDBACK AS SOON AS PAYMENT IS RECEIVED. No exceptions. To netheaduk(from one of the posts above): nice try, your idea is protection for the sellers, read the rest of the posts.

All the comments in this thread have been valid and confirm my drop from perfection rating, which scares buyers off on bid items such as cars, boats, horse trailers, etc. I wonder why ebay doesn't adopt a rolling rating system which would allow ALL old ratings to drop off after a given period of time, i.e. 12 months. This would allow honest people to learn from their mistakes. I sold a HUGE electrical box which I described as NEW, i.e. no scratches, everything perfect. I'm not an electrician. Buyer was electrical contractor getting item at 30 cents on the dollar. Item had been used before and had one tab punched out of bottom. He wanted the $250 purchase price plus $75 shipping refunded because it wasn't NEW. So I learned from then on to add to all my ads "Sold in As Is Condition". That was 2 years ago and people still are influenced by his comments. If we had a rolling system it would keep the history of ebayer's conduct current and provide an incentive to be above reproach. Now I'm buying $1.00 items to get positive feedback to skew my average back up. Tried the recommended resolution site which was USELESS. Moderator wouldn't decide who was right or wrong, so became a time consuming waste of money.

I have sold about 2000 items and had a 100% feedback until last week. A woman who first said she would mail a money order did not. She asked for my PayPal address and I provided her the info in an email. I gave her three weeks and then filed for a Final Value Fee refund as she had not paid by PayPal either. I asked Live Help if they had had inacted their retaliation change for nonpayment. I felt that I needed to alert other sellers to her irresponsibility. I had read about the change in a brochure they sent to our home. They stated that any negative she left for nonpayment retaliation would be an administrative note only. Later, she left a negative...it was not as an admisitrative note. It was on my feedback! Ebay support told me now that it had not gone into affect. This woman told me that she had been "Christmas shopping, bidding a lot, and writing too many checks". The negative feedback stated that she had been in a hurricane! She wrote harrassing emails telling me how horrible and uncaring I am. This is after several emails and nonpayment notifications from Ebay. I checked out her purchases on the feedback and she had been bidding and picking and choosing which sellers she was paying throughout any hurricane. I suspected she may be overextended. She used the name of the Lord to justify her nonpayment. I buy and sell on Ebay. The feedback system is totally unfair. I believe that Ebay allows it to collect the fee for their "Feedback Resolution Service". I have just about had with their lack of caring and unfairness! The feedback system is a joke!

I buy and sell on eBay and as a seller I think giving feedback straight away is rating suicide. When you get a dodgy buyer who claims the item you sent did not arrive or was damaged (when packed so well it would be nigh impossible unless an elephant stood on it!), you can do nothing.

My policy is I send item, buyer to confirm it arrives safely or pursue resolution at this point. If buyer confirms all happy I leave positive. If they screw me over at that point I have the mail backup for some comfort. If buyer has problems I will try to resolve them. Depending on the way that goes down I may leave feedback first or I may not. So I am holding my feedback until I have confidence.
I have had ~25 sales with 4 dodgy buyers. Of these, 1 was suspended by e-bay for 3 strikes so I didn't leave feedback; 1 left me mild positive feedback and I did the same; 1 finally paid after firm but friendly action including Unpaid Item Process, but I am still to see feedback; 1 said at the outset they would pay on a date a week after the auction but didn't, I will UIP them tomorrow after 2 reminders.
So far I have 100% rating but good chance to get 2 negatives for crappy buyers.

Once that happens maybe I will be just about out of action as a seller of most of the items I currently list with a rating of ~75 with about 97% positive, so I really don't think the system is seller friendly. As a seller you need a very high rating to get the best results, I think >98% for most and >99% for high volume traders.
Try selling a DVD boxset with 500 feedback at 97%, vs someone with 100 feedback at 99%... I know who I would buy from in most cases.

I bought a few items from a seller recently. The seller has a 294,519 feedback rating, and I (stupidly) didn't look at his history. Well, this seller never contacted me, and upon further review, I see that he's had 485 negative feedbacks in the last month, and 3099 negatives IN THE PAST YEAR! He has a 98.2% positive feedback rating. Would anyone consider 485 negatives a month good? How about 98.2%? The latter sure sounds better to me, but given the pure number of negatives, it's worthless.

Has anyone experienced this yet? I put 3 items on EBay and the same user: gymratjunkie won all 3. Then, instead of paying, (s)he wanted ME to pay or I would get negative feedback! Is this a new scam? I have reported this to EBay, but their feedback policies aren't very reassuring. The response I got was to the effect of, "We got your email, but won't let you know if we're going to do anything. Basically, it went straight to the "Trash" folder." And even if they do remove the feedback from my score, I'll still have 3 blaring red negatives at the top of my ratings! On top of the listing fees I won't get back, this has really tainted my whole EBay user experience. With all the money EBay has coming in, you'd think they could spare a little for their own FREE Dispute Resolution Service instead of shoving us to the gutter when we have a problem.
Sorry, had to vent :)

You guys are missing one of the biggest problems associated with ebay feedback, the practice of leaving negative feedback comments in the guise of a neutral feedback comment. I would like to see some discussion on this, if possible.

Just found this thread while searching for info about retaliatory negative feedback on eBay. It just happened to me.

On December 30, I bought an item from a seller with a "Buy-It-Now" auction and made immediate payment.

A week later, the seller told me that the item had to be "resent" because of a "weather delay". However, the item did not enter the postal system for yet another week (January 13).I finally received the item on January 28 - the Postal Service was extremely slow, but that was not the seller's fault.

The seller had not removed the original FedEx shipping label from the manufacturer on the carton. I entered that tracking number, and found that the item was shipped to the seller on January 6 and received the day before it was postmarked to me.

The seller didn't even have the item in hand at the time of the auction, and strung me along. I think it is a shoddy tactic worth of negative feedback, and I did so.

The seller decided to retaliate with negative feedback against me, merely with the comment, "You got a good deal... Why must you do this to my perfect record...". In my feedback and rebuttal, I made it clear that I was unhappy with the seller's failure to disclose that she did not have the item in stock and took 2 weeks to ship it to me.

The seller may not appreciate the negative feedback, but I did nothing wrong to deserve retaliation in kind.

I doubt.

That won't hurt the bad guy,

Ok, let's pretend that I am that bad guy.
Now, I am giving you a negative. No matter what you put on me, that won't change the fact.

If you give me a negative (of course I know what kind of crap I shipped), Negative vs Negative, that's what's happening in the current system.

If you give me a positive or netural, I love the new system!"

I am both a buyer and seller on eBay and have have the lovely experience of dealing with psychotic sellers and overly needy buyers. My way of dealing with buyers when I sell is to have them email me IMMEDIATELY when they recieve the item and let me know that it arrived safely, etc. If they email me, I post positive feedback. I am a worry wart and want to know my package arrived safely. Most all the time, buyers are happy but twice, I have had people whine that the product was inferior. First, I take clear pics of everything and my products are high end. I still offer a refund and both buyers rejected the refund (I guess they realized it was a bargain). Maybe in selling high end goods, people feel they can knit-pick EVERYTHING? Anyhow, it works out. For those buyers who say they received the product and nothing to resolve, I leave positive feedback BEFORE they leave feedback.

As a buyer, I have had EVIL sellers who DO state in emails to me they will leave positive feedback if I leave it first. Huh? That is not fair. They are basically threatening me.

Anyhow, the double-blind feedback would be GRAND. If people don't know what is left, people may be more honest instead of being retalitory. Has anyone made mention of these ideas to eBay? What has been the result????

I'm disenchanted with eBay and eBay feedback, which is inflated. I've had a bunch of somewhat flakey sellers. Not evil, but just not business-worthy; the average person who should not be in a retail business. According to eBay feedback, everyone is exemplary. Yet, on a subtle level, every transaction proves to be a mini-quagmire. I have resolved to try and not purchase things through eBay. I need to have return privileges and a prompt, efficient, business-like seller. I need good front and back pictures of clothes and accurate measurements and fabric content. If they eliminated the shopaholics and sellers from eBay, there wouldn't be that many people left buying stuff there. It's not a healthy social model. It's not serving real needs for real people, although it could be. Ebay has good indexing; one can find what one wants more easily there than finding new things on Google or at the mall.

I'm a seller on eBay, and make a living primarily from eBay sales. I buy almost as much as I sell though, as I own a retail bricks-and-mortar store which I get much of my inventory for from eBay. Now, to all the buyers on this forum proposing feedback reform and writing letters to eBay, why do you bother if you know eBay favors sellers as they are the ones who generate their revenue? Ebay won't listen to you. Now think about it. Ebay relys on sellers to make their money, and sellers, such as myself, rely on the buyers. It's all a delicate balance. As a buyer, you shouldn't be fighting eBay, you should bring the fight to the seller. As a seller, I withhold feedback, but as other sellers here have mentioned, it is necessary. I also practice a fair business and maintain a 100% feedback rating with over 3000 feedback. As a buyer, I interpret a 98% feedback rating (considered exemplary by eBay) as being horrible. Think about it, that means that 2 out of every 100 customers are dissatisfied. It doesn't seem like a lot, but if you see the bigger picture, it's enough reason to worry. If you are a buyer, and you purchase an item from a seller that only satisfies 49/50 customers, you are taking a risk and you should be aware of that risk. And buyers, you'd be surprised what an eBay powerseller is willing to do to maintain a 99.x% feedback rating. They will many times provide a full refund even if they lose money, because in the grand scheme of things, that's that 99.x% is their best weapon against other sellers selling similar items for similar or lower prices with 97.x or 98.x% ratings. Also, on the topic of BS shipping prices, I refuse to buy from sellers doing this. It is unfair and misleading, not to mention that in my mind IT IS FRAUD since you are basically dodging final value fees and eBay SHOULD make this their problem. And one more on this topic, if the shipping cost is not CLEARLY listed, I don't even waste my time. As a buyer, why would you sign a legally-binding contract agreeing to pay a certain amount if you're not sure what the total may actually cost you?? It's common sense. As far as eBay sellers go, there are a few scammers, a few really good and honest sellers, and the rest of them are just average. Unforunately, the 98.x%rs are the average. I have personally petitioned eBay to post links (in the item descriptions themselves) to information educating buyers on this breakdown. That is good for the legitimate sellers, and good for the buyers. Many eBay buyers are not frequent buyers, and eBay does very little to explain its feedback system to these people. Obviously, for a new buyer eager to save big by buying on eBay, seeing all the bright green text and a big fat 98% next to the seller's name looks appealing. My advice to buyers: do some research and think before throwing money at just anything you see on eBay. I practice this and I've never had to leave negative feedback for any seller, since I did more extensive research before buying the product, and I always make sure that I'm covered by a 3rd-party insurance or a merchant/credit card guarrantee just in case my strategy fails. Give it a try. If we all practice this as buyers, we will show the sellers what we want, and if they want to stay in business, they will have to bend to our needs, and in turn, ebay will bend to theirs. Hope that wasn't too long :) Good luck everyone with your future eBaying.

FB is optional not mandatory. Personally I could care less for the present feedback system. It’s not fair for the good, honest eBayer’s out there!
As a seller: I changed my policy about leaving feedback first when I found I was leaving about 50% more FB than what I was receiving. I felt that this wasn’t fair to me especially when
I do my best to ensure customer satisfaction with every transaction from start to completion including FULL refunds with shipping both ways or even letting them keep the item and refunding!
A transaction is not complete just because the buyer paid for the item.
A transaction is complete when the buyer receives their item, inspects it and notifies the seller of their satisfaction or dissatisfaction through a courtesy email BEFORE leaving any FB.
Sellers are not MIND READERS. They can’t fix a problem if they’re not aware there was a problem to begin with!
POOR COMMUNICATION between Buyer and Seller is the NUMBER #1 reason for Negative/Neutral FB! I am not afraid of getting a Negative/Neutral FB. But, I do refuse to build up someone else’s FB. I would rather not leave FB or receive any FB, than too leave FB and get no FB in return. Until eBay changes the feedback policy, so that it’s FAIR for everyone… I will keep my policy in place!
EBAY needs to get rid of the "FLY BY NIGHT SELLERS" (these are the major fakes, frauds and flukes that find a way to screw people over!).How to do this? By requesting/confirming a valid TAX ID number like any other "TRUE" business or have an ICON that states the seller is a legitimate business owner.

if i may reaspond, i am a seller on ebay. I sell so much that it is not possible to catch every little mistake so sometimes i do incur a neg fb rating. Now i DO NOT leave retailitory fb. MY first reasponse to any neg fb is to ask what the problem is, i then generally give a full refund + ship a replacment unit. Basically you buyers profit from my mistakes. That is how any seller should be even if they screw up alot. In the end almost everyone is happy, some buyers are just A$$holes though. You cant act like sellers are th only "evil ones" on ebay. for every bad seller there are 10 bad buyers. If you look at 90% of my neg fb's they are from buyers with 10 or less fb. I had one neg fb froma guy becuase the freaking serial number on a sat receiver sold did not match the one in the picture. guess people have never heard of mass listing:P He even later admitted to me that it was his mistake and continued to buy from me. The sellers you should worry about are the ones that are blatently rude im there fb and have tempers. They will leave retalitory fb and will not help you out very much if somthing does go wrong.

We are running into a problem with a seller who had a wonderful rating. I won an auction, but had no luck reaching the seller to pay. I wanted to pay, tried to pay, but the seller's system wouldn't let me!

So I started looking into their feedback and it looked really good. Except for a few really angry buyers. I contacted a few to see if they ever received their merchandise, and they hadn't. One of these other members mentioned that they were bidding on their own merchandise. After a little investigation, I figured out she was incorrect. They were bidding on $0.01 eBooks, recipes, and computer wallpaper. Their 98.5% feedback rating was totally bogus. Their handle is zcomponents. If you check further, you'll notice that all feedback from sellers...over 600 feedback items...are from bogus feeback manipulating jerks!

As a buyer, I rely on the feedback percentage and good comments to guide my purchases. I feel that eBay is totally fraudulent in protecting this seller. They won't do ANYTHING!

Hello,

I manage auctions for a Powerseller and I am passionate about feedback. I can see feedback from both the seller's point of view and the buyer's point of view (as noted by my comments to Jim's post above). Why is it so hard for a buyer to understand that the transaction is not over when they have paid?

If the transaction were over after you have paid then I do not have to ship you anything right? Now that would really warrant some negative feedback for the seller. What if the item arrives broken? It happens. As the buyer would you like the seller to "make this right"? If your answer to that question is yes then, the transaction is not over then is it.

What if the incorrect item is sent, yo know we are all human, it happens. Are you happy leaving negative feedback and keeping something you did not bid on or would you be more satisfied if the seller was able to ship out the correct items.

As a buyer I would be very happy to leave positive (or neutral) feedback for a transaction that did not go smoothly. Bad things happen. If the seller honestly tries to make things right and communicates in a timely manner(within 24 hours) then I will post them positive feedback for a less than pleasant experience based on the profesionalism with which they handled the situation.

The bottom line is that the transaction is not over until BOTH parties are satisfied with the outcome. I will leave feedback for the buyer when I have heard from them that they are satisfied with the items either through positive feedback or an email stating so.

eBay buyers I challenge you to sell 10 items and leave feedback how YOU feel sellers should leave feedback for you. I guarantee you will have different feelings about feedback and a greater respect for the sellers you buy from.

Chuck

I've been selling on ebay for over a year; and use USPS delivery confirmation on every item I ship. I always leave good feedback as soon as buyer pays; it seemd like the right way to do things. But, I've got a whole stack of receipts for those delivery confirmations because about half the buyers don't leave feedback!
My feedback is 100% with praise for fast shipping, good packaging and item being in better condition than described. It is really frustrating to not recieve feedback, so I think it's going to be buyer first from now on!!

I was sick of the politics- I have a 99.8% rating after 5 years (only 1 neg retaliation fdbk when I first started) So I learned quickly- you can't leave neg feedback!
I was sick of it!

So...I started a new account, my goal- leave 100% honest feedback good or bad or whatever! I contacted the sellers first and allowed a min of 48 hours (ususally longer though). I was totally truthful- if it was good, I left a glowing review, if it was ok I left a nuetral and said something like "nice item, but stain not mentioned". If it was bad- I detailed what was bad ie) falling apart, totally misrepresented, broken etc. The only times I chickened out is when it was for a charity or the people were clearly old and maybe really could not see what was wrong with the item.
I was truly shocked what happens when you are honest with feedback! Hate mail, being called a crook and a liar, someone wrote that they have a private jet and what a sad life I must have (she lived in an apartement in a modest area- so I wonder where she stored the jet!!)lol
In every case where I was the first to leave feedback and it was neutral or neg I got horrible retalation feedback- in every single case! I paid always on time and said thank you- payments were usually within minutes of auction close- or the next morning if it ended at night.
I was truly shocked at how far people took this...they still monitor me (even though I never bought from them again!) and weeks later say things like- oh I see you are still at it! Others will say I hope your item doesn't fit, that they will block me- I have even gotten pestering emails asking me to leave feedback right away- many times a day- such odd behavior!
They say tell the Ebay community on and on...pretty much everything short of death threats (at this point at least).
Most of the items I purchased were from the US - children- baby clothes from women...the kind of people you would expect to see at your child's school dropping off their kids!

Truly shocking...and where does this anger come from!!

Why - Why? Can I not be honest? If the item/service was good I said so - if it was clearly bad and the seller would not rectify I said so and was attacked!

Feedback is totally false- I don't even see the point! It is like giving a job reference....are you really going to give a bad one?
Ebay needs to shape up- the feedback is giving sellers/buyers the wrong message- you don't really know who is good or bad! What is the point!

I'm extremely cautious about doing business with companies that have *any* negative feedbacks and I try to scan back into their feedback history very far to see what the issues were. Many times I'll find out there were some crazy buyers who didn't give the seller a chance to make them happy. Unfortunately, many sellers "bury" their neg feedbacks with 100's of small purchases, so it would take literally hours to investigate all of their feedbacks. When you click on a person's feedback link, instead of showing all feedbacks, it should also give you an option of seeing only the neg comments to see if there is a common issue, such as poor packaging or used items being sold as new. This feature would have prevented me from being in the situation I'm in now- I purchased 2 items from a Powerseller who had a decent rating (over 99%) but did have a few negs. I tried to scan through the feedback to find out what the problems were but there were literally thousands of comments, so I decided that since there hadn't been any recent negs, I should be ok. Wrong. I ordered 2 items and paid immediately. Paypal sent me an email stating a label for 1 item had been printed. TEN days later, the tracking info finally stated the item had shipped. Still nothing on the 2nd item. 15 days later I received the first item and emailed the seller about the 2nd. The email bounced! I went to the seller's main website and forwarded the email to their contact. Still no response. I decided to devote some time to digging into feedback. While the first couple of negs were fairly harmless (torn pkg, slow ship) I was alarmed to discover that every single other neg was due to a buyer purchasing multiple items and only receiving one item. They had all tried to resolve with the seller and had numerous unanswered emails, finally resorting to posting neg feedback just to get the seller to acknowledge them. In every single case, the seller posted blistering retaliatory feedback, and adamantly insisted she had sent all of the items and chided the buyer for not insuring!! But here's the thing- she uses Paypal shipping, which sends a confirmation email for the LABEL BEING PRINTED. So if she didn't print the label, how would shipping insurance have helped anyway? The post office would have said "it wasn't shipped!". So now I'm screwed. At least it's only for $15 perfume, but the point is that this jerk can't handle multi-orders and doesn't answer emails, so I have no recourse except to go through Paypal. I'm afraid if I do that, she'll hit me with a neg and ruin my 100% rating. If Ebay would have someone investigate and remove retaliatory feedback, both sellers and buyers could be honest without fear of reprisal. Some sellers' ratings would take a dive, but deservedly. As a buyer, I'm taking the first leap of faith by sending my money for a purchase sight-unseen, to an anonymous someone far away. The seller should have the decency to take the next leap of faith and leave feedback first.

I sell and buy on ebay on a pretty regular basis. When I buy, I pay ALWAYS withen 24 hours, usually withen minutes of auction close. When I sell, I leave feedback as soon as payment clears. Today I got my first negative feedback from a seller who I left positive feedback for, in my statement I said that what she sold me was pretty but not really worth what I paid for it but that it would be good for kids. She left me negative feedback and said that I was a LATE PAYER, after she emailed me saying that she didn't appreciate what I said about her crap. So, how do you fix a problem where people leave feedback for no other reason than that their offended? Why can't ebay MAKE people leave factual satements instead of just "encouraging" them?

There is apparently no way to leave negative feedback on a seller without getting the same. Yes, ebay feedback is a pile of crap- because you are punished for giving honest feedback.

Here's the solution--

You get ripped off by a seller.
1) Leave no feedback.
2) Create a new ebay account at your local library or other location so your ID cannot be traced, and use this account from that location.
You will have to open a hotmail account to activate your new ebay account. This will take all of 2 minutes.
3) Search out other items the seller is selling.
4) Bid HIGH on them all so no one else purchases the items.
5) Don't pay.
6) Repeat until you feel sufficient revenge has been exacted.

I am a seller with over 750 feedback (100 percent positive). Ninety-nine percent of the time, I leave positive feedback upon receipt of quick payment. I have had to refund money for problems real and imagined, but I felt it was worth it to keep my own feedback record intact.

However, as I have sold several dozen items recently, I'm a bit backed up on my feedback. I just got a note from someone who bought a glass lantern. I offered optional insurance, but he declined to purchase it. Now he says the lantern is broken, even though it was wrapped in cardboard, bubble wrap and more bubble wrap. He said he wondered if I had insurance. I pointed out that he was offered insurance and declined it.

Now, he keeps hounding me, "Please leave me positive feedback. I paid on time."

However, it seems obvious to me that if I do so, he will leave negative feedback, when if only HE had paid for insurance, this all wouldn't be a problem.

I told him that I would leave positive feedback as soon as he left it for me. That way, I said, I would feel confident that he was not going to make false claims against me.

I feel completely within my rights to do this. As I've said, I almost always leave positive feedback first. In some situations, though, I believe the seller is warranted in waiting. If a buyer reports this dispute to Paypal, in my experience, Paypal almost always sides with the buyer, and I will be out the money, even though THE BUYER was the careless one in this situation. The seller needs to have some leverage in such situations.

Additionally, I recently sold a record to a man in China. It was in mint condition. He said it was scratched when he received it. I am convinced the record he sent back is not the same one I sent him. It is in awful condition. There is no way I would have described that record as mint condition. There definitely are shady buyers out there, and I think sellers have the right to protect themselves as they see fit.

Any legitimate Seller naïve enough to leave positive feedback, prior to receiving it, simply because some non-descript Buyer paid for an item, had better not quit his day job, as he won’t be around long! All Seller’s know how Buyer’s who may be upstanding neighbors, church-going folk by day, turn into chicken little cowards when left in a dark corner of their den in front of their computer, to unethically shave a few bucks off a poor Seller who simply left feedback first. Of course these little twerps are 10 feet tall behind their keyboard (generally look more like Barney Fife), and make some stupid unscrupulous claim (not as described, etc), to extort funds using ebay loopholes (generally via PayPal). Nope, let the Buyer sweat it out, knowing that if he opts to leave the Seller a pusillanimous Negative Feedback rating, this will generally be rotated to the second page in a day or two, especially for Power Sellers. In other words, this feedback will not be apparent to most folks who brief the first page. On the other hand, HIS bright red Negative Feedback of course will be there for all to see for a considerable time period. If the Buyer tries to hurry and rotate his big red dot to the second page, he will have to spend lots of dinero buying items to do so (I truly delight when watching a Buyer feverishly purchasing things he probably doesn’t need because he is suffering from Nervous Ticks over a quid-pro-quo Negative Feedback attack). Also, Power Sellers with massive feedback scores shouldn’t worry about some loose canon Buyer threatening Negative Feedback, as their feedback rating generally will not change at all, however the Buyers feedback score will drop considerably once it is appropriately transcribed! One more thing, I am a Power Seller, and quit using PayPal long ago, once it became clear they were taking on the role as eBay’s enforcer. I now have a Merchant Account, and life has been grand ever since, and sales have never been better!!. No more ridiculous unfounded chargebacks, PayPal refunding buyers from my account out of the blue, threatening to lock my account with thousands inside, yada, yada, yada. I have seen no reduction at all in sales (most Buyers use a Credit Card anyhow), and enjoy my Merchant Provider fighting for ME for a change, as opposed to the Sellers worst nighmare – PayPal. I hope all Sellers take the time to read this, as it is invaluable advise. Adios!

I am a believer that sellers should have to leave feedback before buyers are even given the option to leave feedback.

Yes, buyers could hold you as a sort of feedback hostage, but this problem is small in comparison to the huge problem that is the current system. Besides, who should be on the chopping block here? It should be the person MAKING money. Sellers should be assuming more risk than buyers.

Even better would be a system where each party gives a numerical rating of several areas of the transaction. For example, a buyer could rate from 0-5 the accuracy of auction description, speed of shipping, cost of shipping (not rating the charge, rating the fairness of the charge), etc etc.. then you could view a seller's average score in each of these areas and quickly get a good picture of them.

Hello, This is in response to your article on "Fix some ebay feedback problems." I think a good first step is a website I found called www.scoopjar.com. At scoopjar.com, you can search and/or post in the Auction section to find out what members really have to say about other members before you make a bid or sell an item. For instance, Ebay allows their members to leave one sentence of feedback which doesn’t really leave much detail. At ScoopJar, there is plenty of room to plead your case. Also, Ebay members rarely leave negative feedback for those who deserve it because they fear the unwarranted retaliation. Check it out and let me know what you think. Thanks, Jim

It may all sound proactive, however just ain’t gonna happen. With Google (AKA: 800 LB Gorilla) on the hunt for not only PayPal but a lion’s share of eBay’s auction monopoly, eBay is actually going the other direction to placate Seller’s.

In the past, eBay has displayed a nonchalant indifference toward Sellers, knowing that there was no better forum to vend their goods. However, with the all devouring Google on the loose, who could potentially take an enormous chunk out of eBay profits in the coming years, eBay is hunkering down to Seller’s groveling at their feet, editing their user agreement to become much more ‘Seller friendly.” The reason you ask? There are a bunch of pissed off Seller’s sick and tired of walking on eggshells on eBay, and could easily walk across the street to sell their goods. EBay knows all too well – where the Seller’s go, the Buyer’s will follow.

I am approaching 5 years as seller, I have about 5000 fb @99.7%+.
I am straight seller and always try to satisfy the customer...
my .02:
-good introspective in this forum
-Google will take a large chunk of ebays lunch unless they act fast and see the light, based on history it will be to little to late.
-As a seller you can not leave a fb without 1st geting one, some punk kid a-hole will wreck your rep and your biz for no good reason at all. ebay set the rules dont hate the playa.
I came to site to see how to leave a fb and got negged back but after reading every thing i have come to my senses, as sellers too its not good to crap where you eat so you must help ebay prliferate the lie otherwise your casting dark shadows on your own store front/salesman. its a screwy system.

I scanned one video seller's reviews and I think I see a possible means to fake a large positive number.

Either get another Ebay account or have a friend do so, then have that other account "buy" auction items (no actual transfer or property or money occurs) and post positive feedbacks. That should build up a hefty positive ratio nicely. (Maybe someone could make deals with various wholesale sellers for fake transactions and positive feedback.)

I just had the "delayed feedback" scam from a seller. I gave a negative feedback and got a negative back even tho he got his money thru Paypal the same day that the auction ended. But it won't work to his advantage. I have so few transactions (and they will remain few after this experience) that any seller can check my rating (which, today is a pitiful 50%) and see from his message that I complained about HIS product FIRST. That should keep the disreputable sellers at bay.

Greetings:
I need to leave neg FB at the very last possible moment to a well deserving party but I don't want to get a revenge neg in return. How do I calculate the exact very last possible minute I can leave FB befor Ebay no longer allows FB for that particular auction? If I can get mine in before he notices it - it will be too late for him to act.

Thank you.

hi.

i have read through all of the sellers and buyers arguments.
im a seller but mainly a buyer.

with regards to the double blind feedback, its an ok idea, but as a seller and a buyer i know what other users can be like, if a system like that was enforced it would result in 90% neutrals left, i know as a buyer i would not leave a positive as i would fear a neautral or negative as the seller would fear the same.

with my buying side i aggree to a degree that sellers should leave feedback 1st, but once you have paid the transaction on your side is not complete. should you have a problem you need to contact the seller 1st to resolve it. not all sellers are bad, i dealt with one last week who allowed me to keep the item, plus send a replacement free of charge, no extra postage costs etc. which i left positive for and got theirs in return. mistakes happen, so both parties need to wait until a problems resolved, i have seen too many people leave a pointless neutral for delay in postage, but postal services are not a buyers responsibilty.

as a seller i personally try to leave my feedback 1st, i always ask my buyers to contact me when the items recieved and let me know what they think. 99% of them do, so i then leave my feedback knowing theres no problem. there are alot of malicious buyers out there, some are just plain thick and dont read descriptions and then have a hissy fit when items arrive, sellers fault? NOPE! seller leaves negative for the buyers stupidness, buyer leaves neg even though ITS THEIR FAULT.

you get alot of regret buyers, who once they have won item dont want it, negative is left because seller demands they pay, is that sellers fault? no!

i cant comment so much as i have been one of the thick buyers, but ebay feedback is a joke and should be scrapped. its meant to represent the item and transaction, yet soooo many leave the wrong feedback for no reason.

a good system to put in place would be when the item is dispatched seller ticks a box, when item is recieved buyer ticks a box, then use of a a multi score feedback system should be available, basically buyer enters 1-5 for......

Item Quality.
Communication.
dispatch rate.
prepared to use again.
overall satisfaction.

and then a delivery one where you enter between 1-21 (representing how many days delivery took) so buyers can see an average delivery time.

on entering this an overall rating score should be given with delivery estimations.

for sellers it should be.

Payment efficiency.
communication.
sattisfaction of customer reply on reciept of goods.
would accept again as a buyer.
overall sattisfaction.

this means feedback is left when an item is recieved, it should be mandatory to do with each transaction done, if its not completed then a strike is given.

sellers and buyers need to get along better, its meant to be a fun time, but everyone fears everyone and the feedback system at the moment is pointless as how much of it is really true?

just an idea anyway.

have you ever thought how UNFAIR paypal buyer protection is?

so what if the ebay feedback section is unfair...i think the unfairness of the paypal buyer protection weighs out feedback!

i.e. one time I shipped an item, person received it, left ME positive feedback and so forth. 2 months later did a credit card chargeback. I wasn't protected since it had to be shipped within 7 days, and I make hand made items, so my production time is 2 weeks for a nice hand made item.

OR

i.e. I ship via regular mail (non insured), at the buyer's CHOICE. 2 days later, demands for a tracking number, which is not possible since it's via regular mail, which i clearly state as NON insured and NO tracking.
When I told them that there is none because of the shipping method they chose, BUT I shipped it right away, IMMEDIATELY after finding out that I had shipped it, they did a paypal claim.

And of course, I lost $200 to a person who scammed me.

So of COURSE sellers are NO where obligated to leave feedback right after receiving the payment.

I currently am in -1 for feedback and everytime I ask a question to a buyer about an item. They tell me what I wanted to know and say I'm sorry I can't sell it to you cause you have -1 feedback. Unless you do it over a bank transfer! yeah right like I'm going to trust that I feel a lot more secure by debit card.

And the reason is I have -1 feedback is because I purchased a copy of 1 Norton Internet Security 2005. Only to find out for £9 it was a trial version and I believe that is illegal selling trial software. You can pick up for free at a local PC shop or off a magazine but he gave me negative feedback hid what I said so others can't see it. And is still selling it to people who have no clue Ebay really needs to sort there system out.

Cause people like me can't buy nothing until we get back into postive.

Has anyone else had this problem? They have done NOTHING to help. I can't complete my sales as this happened just one the day they all finished. Is this a coincidence? Now I want out.

EBay is useless when there is a problem. I get stock answers that have nothing to do with my question. I begged and pleaded for help for a week on a daily basis before I received an answer. A buyer bid at the last minute, my requested $10 min. bid. I had listed $5 postage and handling. I had hoped for more than $10 but since that's what I started then I had to sell. I sent the buyer an invoice for $15. Eight days after the auction he sends me $12 saying postage should only be $1 but since he's such a nice guy he sent me $2. I returned his payment with an explanation. He treatened to "ruin" my 100% feedback. EBay still has not given me any useful help. They said use dispute resolution, I did and the SOB paid the full $15. The buyer broke the contract by sending me $12, sending it after the 7 days, and trying to bully me into what he wanted. EBay wanted to give me the buyer's contact information and the buyer would get mine. I said "NO" I don't want anything to to with this jerk. So I have given up. I have to send the jerk the 10 antique postcards. I give up on eBay too. I will not use them anymore. I've been a registered user since 1998 and have a 100% feedback. I'm not out to "get" anyone. This buyer accused me of stealing his money. He buys postcards and resells them. He charges $1.75 postage and handling for one postcard. AOL had the same customer no-service and they got in deep do-do. Let's hope eBay does too. The auction ended on Nov. 22 and the problem is still unsolved. So much for eBay!

I wrote a paper (not yet published) about how online systems model and use trust. One paragraph you might find interesting is the following:

"Nevertheless, in November 2004, a survey on eBay's feedback
system [1] found that only 3% of the respondents found it excellent, 19% felt the system was very good, 39% thought it was adequate and 39% thought eBay's feedback system was fair or poor. These results are
even more interesting when compared with numbers from a January 2003 identical survey. The portion of ``excellent'' went from 7% to 3%, the
``very good'' from 29% to 19%, the ``adequate'' from 35% to 39%, the
``fair or poor'' from 29% to 39%. Moreover, the portion of total
respondents who stated that they had received retaliatory feedback
within the prior 6 months passed from 27% of 2003 survey to
38% of 2004 survey. These shifts seem to suggest that the time
might have come for more sophisticated (and, as a consequence, more complicated to understand) trust metrics. "

[1] AuctionBytes Survey Results: Your Feedback on eBay's Feedback System
by David Steiner
http://www.auctionbytes.com/cab/abu/y204/m11/abu0131/s02

I sold an item by auction to a purchaser, who then refused to pay. I left negative feedback saying simply 'non-paying bidder'. My purchaser retaliated by libelled me in the feedback, calling me a "con-artist"!! (They had changed thier mind and bought another similar item and didn't want to complete the transaction).

Ebay refused to help unless I got a solicitor to take my details with a sworn stautory declaration to say what had happened in his view, and that my purchasers feedback was libellous and actionable in law.

I got all this done and sent to Ebay. Ebay then removed the libellous feedback, AND THE NEGATIVE FEEDBACK THAT I HAD LEFT, giving the libelling party a clean bill of health. Ebay's feedback system is indeed fundamentally flawed.

I lightning!7 just got banned from the discussion rooms for the following posting which I duplicated in various rooms ( BIG CRIME ON EBAY ) Your double blind and other changes make sence, as it is now, you dare not leave negative feedback ESPECIALLY if you are a low volume buyer or seller, I personally will never bid early again, always snip, never leave feedback first, and have been turned from a person who use to consider a man's handshake his bond, to a bitter half empty glass person

Please send a copy of this Email to all your Ebay contacts and Ebay customer support. Trying to change the Ebay feedback system for the better. Having spoken with many Ebay users (in discussion rooms) and by email and have come up with a better system for Ebay to apply a fairer feedback system. It's simple, Both parties (buyer and seller) must enter a positive feedback within one week of the ending time of the auction or neither feedback shows, if there is a negative from either side then nothing is posted and Ebay must enter as an arbitrator on the matter, as to what gets posted. Simple straight forward, but Ebay must get involved and get their hands dirty. This is the only truly fair system, or if no change happens, then it’s going to by MY new way, which is, I will never post a positive feedback until the person posts a positive one first for me, and even then, I think I might just be lazy like so many others have done to me and not even bother posting for them. Why should I boost their rating when they won’t boost mine! As I have found out just recently, it’s impossible for the person who posts first to retract there positive feedback, so once I have my positive feedback from them, why don’t I just stick it to them as so many have to me and not post at all! Heck Ebay does nothing about these lazy people who don’t play fair, and sticks it to those of us who do!

Seems my above feedback proposal needs a slight adjustment due to more then seven days required to get some items delivered, well then (1st) We need Ebay to require a signature and a code phrase to be required by each buyer to be entered on the courriers memo pad at time of arrival. This verifies with no doubt the correct person receives the item. (2nd) once the corrier has entered the parcel delivered, the two parties have one week to enter the positive feedback for each other or nothing is posted for ether, and Ebay post a notice on both clients accounts of failure to leave feedback. If Ebay spots a negative in ether feedback it sends both parties a notice to resolve issues within a week and then if nothing settled it decides what postings (feedbacks will be left).

The system as it stands now sucks! If your a seller you want the buyer to post first, and if your a buyer you want the seller to post first. The issues for both sides as the system stands now are both valid, and rely on trust
Well the day of a hand shake or a persons word doesn't mean anything and even a contract isn't a contract, (when was the last time you loaded a piece of software or went on a web site and had to agree to a contract to use there product or site, WAS THERE ANY WHERE ON THAT PAGE OR AGRREMENT TO PUT IN YOUR STIPULATIONS NO! that's what a contract is supposed to be by law. But these days if you don't agree to there terms 100% or press or check off the agreement box you go no further. So all the griping by ether the sellers or the buyers falls on deaf ears Ebay doesn't care you've signed that one sided contract! your only hope is to stamp out a system like the one I proposed above and flood their customer support service and google and TV networks with it or things will never change!
RATING IS BASED ON A PERCENTAGE OF WHAT YOU HAVE DONE, EXAMPLE your a new buyer, and have only managed to buy one item till now and your buying from a power seller of over 1000 sales, you both leave negative feedback, your feedback rating goes to 50% (he/she has just destroyed anyones confidence in you, on the other hand the sellers rating has gone done to 99.99% everyone is still happy with dealing with this seller. and the tables work just as easily the other way. As the system isn't monitored or regulated cuirrently, your best bet is just to fight for a resolution with the seller, and if not possible walk away and swallow this bitter pill

Use this tool to find and view negative, neutral, and withdrawn eBay feedback.

http://www.inetfeedback.com/ebay

Double Blind Ebay Feedback Form Rating System
Rating 5: Excellent, or the best you’ve seen
Rating 4: Above Average or better then most
Rating 3: Fair, or could have been better, but still ok
Rating 2: Below Average, poor description, slow response, etc
Rating 1: Poor little description or all terms not present etc.
Rating 0: Bad, Deceitful, no contact etc.

Below to be filled out by the Buyer
1. How well was the auctioned Item listed (?)
2. Did the seller make clear the terms of his sale (yes) (?) or (no) (?) or (N/A) (?)
3. Was the shipping costs clearly laid out (yes) (?) or (no) (?) or (N/A) (?)
4. Did the seller reply to your auction questions before the end of the auction (yes) (?) or (no) (?) or (N/A) (?)
5. When the auction ended how would you rate communication with the seller that day (?)
6. Did the seller give you some way of tracking your item (yes) (?) or (no) (?) or (N/A) (?)
7. Were you given an estimate on the time it would take to be delivered (?)
8. Did the seller respond to your communications after you stated you had received / or not received the item in the expected time period (yes) (?) or (no) (?) or (N/A) (?)
9. How well was the item packaged?
10. If there was a problem with the item, other then the amount of shipping time how did the seller handle it (?)

This section is to be filled out by the buyer and deals with the shipping experience
1) Enter the name / names of courier services involved in the delivery.
2) Was the item shipped out on the date the seller said it would be shipped (?)
3) Did the package arrive (yes) (?) or (no) (?) or (N/A) (?)
4) Was the amount of time, for the package to arrive as expected (?)
5) Did you have to sign for the delivery (yes) (?) or (no) (?) or (N/A) (?)
6) If yes to #4 Where you required to prove in some manner who you were (yes) (?) or (no) (?) or (N/A) (?)
7) What was the state of the package upon arrival (yes) (?) or (no) (?) or (N/A) (?)
8) Does it appear the item was damaged in transit (yes) (?) or (no) (?) or (N/A) (?)
9) Was there any fees that occurred upon the arrival of the item you didn’t expect (yes) (?) or (no) (?) or (N/A) (?)
10) Was the items delivery insured by you paying extra or the type of delivery service (yes) (?) or (no) (?) or (N/A) (?)

Below to be filled out by the Seller
1) Did the buyer contact you before the auction ended with any questions (yes) (?) or (no) (?) or (N/A) (?)
2) At the end of the auction did the winning party contact you quickly before paying for any changes or instructions (yes) (?) or (no) (?) or (N/A) (?)
3) Did the buyer pay shortly after the auction (yes) (?) or (no) (?) or (N/A) (?)
4) Did you use a delivery service which tracks the progress of your delivery (yes) (?) or (no) (?)
5) Was the delivery service you used, require the buyer to sign for the delivery or require some form of identification upon receiving (yes) (?) or (no) (?)
6) Did the buyer respond to you on the day he / she received the item or was supposed receive the item (yes) (?) or (no) (?) or (N/A) (?)
7) If there was a problem with the item other then shipping time or shipping damage did the buyer give you a chance to rectify the matter (yes) (?) or (no) (?) or (N/A) (?)
8) if the item was damaged or not received do you believe it happened in transit or at the hands of the buyer (yes in transit) (?) or (no, at the hands of the buyer ) (?) or (N/A) (?)
9) If given the option to sell or not to sell to this buyer would you again (yes) (?) or (no) (?)
10) If the buyer was dissatisfied have you received any retaliatory problems (yes) (?) or (no) (?)

Also there needs to be a sellers section on dealing with the courrier services, (just tired of typing tonight)

the biggest flaw in the system is for the little guys who say has 100 positive feedback, buys something from a power seller with 50,000 feedback - if the service received from the seller is poor and the buyer leaves neg feedback and the seller retaliates with neg, the effect for the little guy is far worse. One bad feedback out of 100 is worse as a percentage than one in 50,000 – also for a power seller the details of that negative feedback will soon leave their feedback page as their transaction rate will be high.

The system needs some form of weighting.

I buy semi-frequently (FB#74) and sell maybe once or twice a year. I should have a feedback number twice what shows, but both buyers and sellers have ruined the system.
When I buy, I use PayPal immediately. What more is required of the buyer? What more can the honest buyer possibly do? If you (the seller) get conned buy some unscrupulous buyer, what business is that of mine? Why do I have to pay a price for that guy scamming you? Once I pay you, give me my fucking feedback, asshole! I'm sick of this stupid game!
I just sold a product that I have haven't used for over two years. I only used it three times after paying about a thousand bucks brand new. I had to ship it in 3 boxes, so couldn't get an accurate shipping quote from eBay. Charged the guy a flat rate to make sure shipping was covered. Sent the item and refunded him the difference in shipping. I had everything packed super secure and safe! Can I get a FB from this guy that got a tremendous deal and stellar shipping WITH refund of excess? No!
So, all you can do is either live with the screwy system they have, that the users have fucked up, or DON'T EBAY.
I do like the idea of having seperate buyer and seller ID's. I may make up a new ID everytime I sell from now on so I don't have to worry about FB score.

one way to deal with BS sellers is to continue to hammer them, paypal and ebay. recently i purchased a sterling silver zippo lighter from a seller on ebay. the zippo was to be a present, and time was of the essence in the deal i informed the seller of this before even making the purchase, and i was assured that the seller would take care of things promptly. i bought the item, and paid right awat with paypal, and paid for priority shipping. about 2 hours after i bought the item, i called the seller to offer to pay for overnight shipping, just to jmake sure id have my item on time. i spoke to the seller, and he assured me he had already rished to the post office and shipped the item so i would have it in time. i asked for a tracking number, and the seller assured me he would email me one as he didnt have it "on him". 4 days passed and i hadnt received my item. i tried then for another few days to get ahold of the seller via ebays email system, my own personal email and by telephone. i never got a reply to any of my 25-30+ emails or my 15 long distance calls to him and the messages i left on his machine.after 7 days, i contacted paypal who urged me under the circumstances to start a dispute and then to esclate it right away to a claim ( seeing as the guy would return my calls or emails and thats what a disputes suppoed to be for, to allow the seller and buyer a chance to comunicate and get the deal worked out before any other action is taken)...i did as instructed....about 2 hours later, i received an email from ebay telling me the guy had opened an unpaid item dispute on me thru ebay! also, he stated he didnt ship the item out because i had paid and my payment hadnt cleared ( bull as i paid with paypal and my monies were funded directly from them....) he did this as a retalitory action because i filed with paypal. the seller then sent me an email telling me that the reason he filed is because i filed with paypal, and that it was because i kept harassing him. i replied and told him he hadnt seen anything yet!

well, i ended up getting a refund 4 days later from paypal who found in my favor...you know why?.....because i found the only way to get anything taken care with ebay or paypal is to ring the hell out of there telephones...i called paypal like 10 times a day, and got ebays home office telephone number from information. ebays operator,everytime i called for the first 5 times in a row transfered me to some bullshit recording, and finally i called him back and told him i had nothing better to do until the issue was resolved but have 10 of my friends and myself consistantly call all day and tie up there telephone lines until they actually put me in contact with someone that could take care of the issue. the guy finally transfered me to the safety team, and i had to leave a recording, where i left the auction number, the sellers name and a quick synopsis of the bullshit going on....the next morning, paypal refunded my monies in full including all charges,etc and told me it was because they were tired of hearing from me on the issue...lol...............anyway, remember theres alot of sellers out there that will bend you over with no grease and then when they get there money, take there own swwet time doing anything. also remeber that if a seller cant supply paypal with a tracking number, that the complaint will automatically be found in your favor

only thing you have to worry about is those sellers that have caught onto the fact that they can scam a person and send them a box full of rocks instead of the item they paid for. i had this happen pnce before, and on paypals recomendation, i now open all of my packages at the post office ( i live in a rural area and have to pick mine up) in front of the postmaster or attendant there. paypal will take a letter from someone there that the package was bs as the gosiple.

as far as the feedback system goes, i feel the exact same way. when a seller pays for the item, there end of the deal is done.if there going to have a feedback system, they should set it up so that before a buyer can leave feedback, the seller must leave feedback. that would eliminate about 99% of the bulshit retalitory crap, and would also make a seller think twice about alot of aspects of the sale, ( like insurance and shipping scams,shoddy irems not as described,etc)

mostly, i have bought off of ebay, but on occasion i sell something. i bend over backwards to do everything i can for a buyer, and i ALWAYS leave feedback as soon as they pay for the item ( which when i sell is generally right away as i require most items to be instant paypal pay auctions.)

also, ive noticed from reading about this sort of thing on the net that most of the sellers who have problems with ideas like ours about feedback are generally the scammers. they do not work for there positives, they blackmail and esentualy threaten to get them!