The Ellen Tigh Plot
With so many candidates eliminated by various clues and pronouncements, one that has percolated to the top (not counting the Virtual Being who is my current leader) is the dead Ellen Tigh. She's not a very popular choice, since she was not a likable character, and not that major of one either.
Ellen appeared, though many won't remember it, in the pilot miniseries. Just before the attack, Colonel Tigh pulls out a photo of Ellen (played by a different actress) and uses his cigar to burn a hole in it. In this photograph, you see he burns her a bright red, glowing eye. Well, especially to miniseries viewers, a red glowing eye has a special meaning.
When she does arrive, everybody wonders if she's a Cylon. She says she was unconscious on a fleet ship for 3 weeks, having escaped from Picon. She's immediately all over everybody, wants to get back with Tigh, is flirting with Apollo and very, very curious about the hunt for Earth. She is the first to be tested in the Cylon tester.
So let's consider an interesting possible plot for Ellen as the final Cylon.
The Final Five, as I view it, are not strictly Cylons. They are former human beings who transferred their minds into AI form. They were, I think, the people who programmed and created the Cylon AIs and the first Cylons themselves, back on Earth.
As I also surmise, in order to maintain their humanity, they regularly incarnate themselves in human form, unaware of who they are. They are born, grow up and then later die or become aware, and merge themselves with the more advanced AI mind, keeping that mind more human.
So let's imagine that two of the five are lovers. They were lovers as humans, and have had a tumultuous, 4,000 year long on-again off-again love affair. Sometimes, as is the case this time, they find each other in human form, and marry. But it's not a fully stable relationship, in spite of, or perhaps because of its longevity.
This time, Ellen goes particularly far, and starts screwing Cavil and eventually betrays the resistance while trying to help Saul. And he has to execute her for doing this.
After he does, Ellen wakes up in a tank. Now her mind is merged with her old self, and she remembers the 4,000 year history. And sees the horrible thing done to Saul, and that he did to her. She is hungry for redemption, but it will only come with suffering.
Boy, talk about a marital spat coming up. I only suggest details here. It's possible that if this is the real plot, Moore could develop it more. Even show flashbacks, once things are revealed, of their beginnings on Earth, and their 4,000 year long love affair and battle. Give it some real meat. Strengthen the love and betrayals. And then show how it all comes together.
To sum up, Ellen:
- Has many dramatic clues pointing her out as a Cylon.
- Has been around since the miniseries and season one.
- Is a guest star, but not a brand new one. She's well known to audiences, unless they just joined.
- Is not in the fleet, and D'Anna may well know she's dead.
- Is not in the Last Supper photo
- Is not likely to be the one D'Anna apologized to (I guess that would be Anders.)
- Would be hungering for redemption, and gain it only in suffering.
- At the time of Razor, she was still alive and in shadow.
- Has been back in the show, in Tigh's mind.
My main issue with her, aside from her non-likability, is I don't think she's developed enough, and she's been out of the show since early in Season 3, except for her hallucination appearances. They would need to develop this story more to make it satisfying, but I think they could do that.
It can of course be very deep. Perhaps this isn't the first time they have betrayed one another, or even the first time one of them has killed the other. Could the war on Kobol have been a result of their marital spat?
Thu, 2008-07-31 19:27
Hmmm, this is interesting
Hmmm, this is interesting and I see how this could fit. I can also draw parallels between Ellen's and Caprica's behavior. For some reason this choice just doesn't resonate on an emotional level for me. As I understand it we are promised a "strong emotional resonance" with the final cylon. But the storyline could really go anywhere. Pretty soon you will have me going back to the 5 gods theory. Hahaha.
Sat, 2008-08-02 12:22
Something occurs to me
Something occurs to me concerning the kinds of clues that are purported to be left throughout season 1. The Last Supper picture is a mirror image of the Da Vinci painting in terms of its placement of the "apostles". Most people think that the empty seat in the BSG Last Supper is the Judas placement but its not. That would be Tyrol holding the knife. So I wonder about mirrors being clues. For example: Sharon opens a locker and sees Cylon written across the mirror. Lee opens his locker and has a strange flashback. I'm not sure what other "mirrors" are shown in season 1. But in Season 3, Baltar sees the virtual character and a mirror image of himself. Just a random thought.
Sat, 2008-08-02 13:08
Possible plot line for final
Possible plot line for final season?
In the commentary for Tigh Me Up Tigh Me Down; RDM talks about doing a riff on the movie Crimson Tide. I wonder if the plot for the final season will be a riff on the Da Vinci Code since we have the Last Supper picture. If this is so, then the cup that Lee is looking at would represent the divine bloodline. At Comicon; they mention that a lot of the plot will be traveling around earth , making discoveries and finding out stuff about the history etc., I wonder if there is a trip to Rosslyn Chapel in store for us. In the myth, the holy grail is said to be beneath this chapel. So what is beneath Laura Roslyn? I think this refers to the line of succession and of course Lee is being groomed as the next president of the colonies. There are also some interesting parallels with the keeper of the cup being Joseph of Aramithea which could have some reference to Joseph Adama as well as the Temple of Five or Knights Templar. Joseph of Aramithea (a secret disciple of Jesus), takes the cup to Britain and founds a line of guardians to keep it. In Razor, Sharon tells us about the Guardians and the prototype hybrid, who is continuing his own path of evolution.
There is also a reference in the grail story to a keeper of the grail being in hiding and sustained by the cup for 42 years. The grail story, could refer to the line “all this has happened before and all this will happen again.”
I don’t think the final cylon is Ellen. In one picture, Tigh is burning out her right eye and in another he is burning out the middle of her face. But I do think its necessary to have a pregnancy for the divine bloodline to continue. So a birth could refer to the line “clawing towards the light and howl of suffering“.
I don’t think Baltar is the final cylon. He has already been redeemed and said this about his character at Comicon. He seems to be taking the place of Joseph Smith the founder of the Church of Jesus Christ Latter Day Saints.
Sat, 2008-08-02 17:35
Something about the Comicon
Something about the Comicon convention. James Callis says "watch this space". I can't really disclose how I know this information; but it means, if something was deleted, you should pay attention to it. I think this is a reference to cut scenes. As an expample of their importance as clues:
In the Last Supper picture. Tyrol is looking at a glass of water. So I went back to the deleted scenes for the the episode "Water". The scenes that were cut were scenes that give away too much information about Sharon being a cylon. The cut scenes with Tyrol indicate clearly that he knows Sharon was involved with the bombing of the water tanks. He also knows that it is impossible for a human to enter these tanks and place the bombs. He suspects her but covers up for her. This is too much information so these scenes were cut.
In a cut scene from the first episode "33"; an opening sequence was cut. If you watch this scene frame by frame at the point where Galactica jumps you will see an image of the Eye of Jupiter/Mandala in its wake. The next image is that of Lee with a smile on his face.
I also believe that mirrors and photographs, or the concept of mirror images, yield clues. I think that is the clue we are given in the Last Supper picture being the reverse or mirror image. I seem to recall a photo of what I thought were Zack and Lee but both boys had dark hair. This doesn't fit with the other photos in Adama's quarters that we are used to seeingof Zack and Lee. I have been looking at the photos in cut scenes and Adama's quarters for this picture. I believe it is a picture of young Lee and his deceased twin brother because they were much younger than the other pictures. I am surprised at how many pictures that I didn't notice in Adama's quarters. Photos represent people who are lost to us as in the photo gallery in the main gangway. There is also the picture of Ellen in the mini-series getting her cylon eye burned out. This is a clue in the same way that the mirror that Sharon looks at has the word cylon written on it and the flashback scenes, I keep coming across in cuts scenes and in 33 and Water. And there is the mysterious photo of the unknown person (with back towards us) originally in the CAG and then in Laura's ship, taken on the day Caprica was destroyed. There is also the strange commentary on 33 where David Eick refers to Grampa Adama and the twins. I don't think that Lee is the final cylon, but I think he is influenced by the final cylon. If he did lose a twin brother a at young age, it could explain why Adama and his wife split and why Lee is so upset about the loss of Zack. I know this is a stretch but I think the Da Vinci code plot is a strong possibility and twins have a "special" connection with each other and apparently there is always a dominant twin.
Sat, 2008-08-02 18:51
God the Father = First
God the Father = First Hybrid = Joseph Adama
God the Son = God in Human Form = Lee Adama
God the Holy Spirit = Virtual Character = Lee's twin = final cylon
Sat, 2008-08-02 22:40
It's not Lee
He is ruled out so many ways. Four in the Fleet. Last Supper photo. D'Anna's game of brinksmanship with the hostages with him makes no sense if she knows he's Cylon #5. It's not an unknown brother, we're told it's an actor we know, though I guess if this character is played by Bamber, that could fit, but the lost evil twin plot is one of the most cliched plots in TV history. No way that would satisfy the audience.
Sun, 2008-08-03 05:00
Well, I think it works with
Well, I think it works with the a Da Vinci Code superplot. Lee is not the final cylon. The controversy of Da Vinci's painting is that one of the figures is female and some conjecture it's male. The holy spirit in doctrine is neither male of female. This explains to me why the virtual character is sometimes female and sometimes male. V6 has said at least twice that god is male. I think the cylon god is the first hybrid. He says "my children think I am god". The "one who programmed us" is the final cylon. I can't see it being Ellen, even though there are many similarities in the way V6/Ellen behave. In the scene where Lee is lost in space and appears floating in the figure of the crucified christ; I take this to mean that he is "god the son" near death. In the episode Tigh Me Up, Tigh Me Down; RDM says the original title was going to be "secrets and lies". I have to ask what are the Adama family secrets. Did the grandfather raise the "boys". Did one die and as in the Joseph of Aramithea story he takes the grail cup and collect the blood and the body? I think this is the tie with Caprica storyline. The twin idea may be over cliched but I don't think it's wrong.
Which brings me to D'Anna. Why does she say "the one who programmed us?". How does she know this unless certain information was imparted to her in the Temple of 5. This character could have shown itself as the image of Caprica for all we know.
Sun, 2008-08-03 05:50
OK. well maybe a twin sister
OK. well maybe a twin sister Artemis. Ellen may be the final cylon after all. But if you look up Apollo in wikipedia, well it could even Cottle. Apollos is another name for apostle.
Mon, 2009-01-12 14:42
Aurora/Eos and Apollo
BSG mixes Roman and Greek pantheons all the time -- they're not even attempting to stick to one or the other: http://en.battlestarwiki.org/wiki/Mythological_references#Greek_references
Plus, the writers keep associating Starbuck with Aurora. Aurora (Roman) is usually equated with Eos (Greek). This figure's brother was Sol (Roman)/Helios (Greek) and Helios is often equated with Apollo. Eos was said to open the gates for Apollo's chariot. So, if you're going for a sibling/twin connection there already is one between Starbuck and Apollo.
Wed, 2008-08-06 08:47
OK, here's another
OK, here's another possibility - Romo Lampkin
In Romo’s quarters on the Galactica, there is a plaque on the wall that appears to have Masonic symbol of the calipers.
Mysterious, seductive, thief, liar, wears dark glasses (eyes are the window to the soul, cylon raider knows Anders by scanning his eye; eye of Jupiter); takes them off when he is influencing someone.
Says he knows Lee’s grandfather well and hated him. Lee’s grandfather may be the first hybrid (the first cylon experiment; my children think I am god); because he defended the most venous and heinous criminals.
How does Lampkin know him? Lampkin appears to be about Lee’s age? We are given to think he knows him by studying his books and case histories; but Lampkin speaks as though he knows him personally. Lampkin uses this connection to make a connection with Lee. He even tells Lee that he looks like his grandfather. How does he know this? Lampkin would have had to know Joseph Adama when he was Lee’s age to make that comparison. A personal connection is extremely unlikely but Lampkin speaks about this connection very personally.
When Lee takes Lampkin to his quarters, Lampkin says “you’re pilot, king of the pilots) and later says that everyone is looking at Lee as if blood was coming out of his side. Lampkin is referring to Pontious Pilate and the wound in Jesus ribs made by the spear of Longinus/spear of destiny (which we see in Tyrol’s hands in the Last Supper Picture). The second relic from the King Arthur/Grail Legend is the chalice or Holy Grail also on the table. (which Lee is contemplating). How does Lampkin know about Jesus and the trial of Jesus. He appears to be the only person in the Galactica universe with this knowledge.
Lampkin is making a parallel between Baltar’s Trial and the Trial of Jesus.
Lampkin also give us information about his wife Faye Lampkin (or perhaps Morgan Le Fey, Arthur’s sister, in the Arthurian Legends she is a witch; her cat is named Lance (Lancelot); a cat being an occult intermediary between the witch/warlock and satan). He says he was with her for 10 years on Geminon and that they had two daughters together. He gives us to believe that they all died in the holocaust.
He says the cat didn’t bite and scratch like his wife did. He also says that he loved her so much that when she died, he thought if he could just conquer that love, he wouldn’t need her for strength. This statement resonates with Lee as he has just lost Kara.
When Lampkin interviews Caprica 6, he takes off his glasses and looks her straight in the eye. She tells him that Baltar is brilliant, narcississtic, venal etc. and she should have stabbed him herself. Lampkin asks is human and cylon love are the same? He says cylon love is not for the faint hearted and asks if her love hurts as much as his? She nods her head yes. He says perhaps she should have been nicer to her maker.
This leads me to believe that Lampkin is the 5th cylon or the maker, the one who programmed the 7 and awakens the other 4. He is the virtual entity in all cases. Caprica 6 is a recreation of Lampkin’s wife (Morgan le Faye). Her relationship with Baltar mirrors the relationship between Lampkin and his wife.
He creates Caprica 6 in the image of his wife and gives her all the same characteristics including obsessive love for Baltar. He selects Baltar because he is the most venal/narcisistic human he can find (also a characteristic of his wife or possibly himself), someone who is incapable of love and gives Caprica 6 the mission to make Baltar accept god and his love. This is a mirror image of his relationship with his wife with the roles in reversal.
In his interview with Caprica 6 he is in a sense asking her “how does it feel to have the shoe on the other foot”.
Romo also uses this exchange with Caprica 6 to make a connection with Lee. As Lee is listening to the interview he is making comparison’s between himself and Kara.
D’Anna previously told Baltar that the hybrids were insane because that they could see the face of god. She also says Leoben thinks everything the hybrid’s say means something. She tells Baltar that to see the face of god is to know madness. In season 4, Lee goes to see Lampkin. Lampkin appears insane in the exchange and is on the verge of suicide? We also find out that the cat is dead (or perhaps mummified?).
Who is Romo (Rome) Lampkin? Is he Longinus? Destined to walk the earth until the second coming of Christ on earth? Is he satan? Or satan’s instrument? During Baltar’s drug induced interrogation by Adama/Roslyn; he asks if Caprica 6 is and angel or a demon? Caprica told Baltar that she is an angel sent by god. Baltar is shaped into a Jesus figure by V6 even to his appearance. Caprica also refers to god as male. HE wants your love and HIS divine will.
Lampkin is also a thief. He steals Baltar’s pen, Adama’s button, Roslyn’s glasses, the prosecuting attorney ‘s slipper. This is symbolic of using something belonging to another person to control them (as in black magic) although he gives another explanation to Lee. He says these objects tell him something about his opponents and he also uses the pen to manipulate Caprica 6. She asks if Baltar has mentioned her and he gives her the pen saying that Baltar wanted her to have it as the only thing he could offer that hasn’t already been taken from him, that it represents his voice the only thing remaining to him and represents his love for her, he tells Caprica that Baltar loves her and the only thing he wants is to be with her. Lampkin tells Caprica 6 exactly what she wants to hear because he programmed her with this obsession and he knows that she will no longer testify against Baltar at the trial. Lee recognizes this for the lie that it is since he has been privy to all conversations between Baltar and Lampkin and knows that Baltar did not say this or give Lampkin the pen to give to 6. He then has Lee return the pen to Baltar so that Baltar can continue to write and distribute his manifesto. Along with a note saying that there is nothing more powerful than a son who steps out of his father’s shadow.
Lee asks Lampkin what he has stolen from him? Lampkin doesn’t answer Lee and we are given to think that he has not taken anything. But he has. He has stolen Kara from Lee (and Lee from Adama.)
Leoben also has an obsessive love with Kara that is similar to Caprica/Baltar. He tells Kara and Adama that “I can see more than you can imagine”; he knows about her life, mother, things she has never spoken to anyone. Of all the cylons he is the most like a hybrid and the most prophetic. He also gives the information that Adama is a cylon (Joseph Adama/First Hybrid?).
In the episode Maelstrom, the 4 are awakened by the song “All Along the Watchtower”. There are two persons speaking; The Joker and the Thief. Kara is the Joker (or wild card) and the Thief in the form of Virtual Leoben is the Thief. Kara recognizes that virtual Leoben is not Leoben. He replies, I never said I was. It is this character that convinces Kara not to fear death and to “cross over” to the place in between life and death to learn her true nature. In Kara’s final moments we see an image of a young girl bathed in light looking up and smiling (as though to her father).
Kara in the last supper picture takes the position of the Apostle John, the Disciple whom Jesus loved, Also the Beloved Disciple who’s name is unknown or hidden and Lazarus. Lazarus’ fate is to walk the earth bound in flesh until the second coming of Christ. Lazarus is also resurrected by god. This is her “fate” and her destiny is to point the way to earth having fulfilled the requirements of the second coming; all must return to earth for the last judgement and resurrection.
D’Anna may very well have seen Lampkin in the Temple of 5 (Knights Templar?). When Baltar questions D’Anna about her suicides. D’Anna shows him a series of pictures she has drawn. In a picture of the 5, there is one character with Lampkin’s hairline and in the picture previously described, there is an image of Lampkin in profile with dark glasses. It is the kind of image that if you look at it one way, you can see an image of Lampking and then it reverses into a picture of 3 faces; two of them appear to be howling, one is crying.
It’s unclear who D’Anna speaks to in the Temple of 5. It may be Virtual 6/Ellen or it could be Lampkin. When she first sees him in another suicide flashback, she frowns and looks started, incredulous. In the Temple itself, she spits out the word “you!?”. V6 is a manifestation of the final cylon in it’s many forms. It is telling that Baltar takes D’Anna’s hand at the same time she takes the final cylon’s hand in the vision. Baltar is the son of god (Lampkin’s version). Lampkin has also been with us in the form of Virtual 6 since the beginning of the show and his face is in shadow (as in the dark eye glasses).
He is also the character pulling all the strings and running the agenda and all conversations with a virtual entity whether its Baltar and Virtual 6; Caprica and Virtual Baltar; Baltar and Virtual Baltar make sense if Lampkin is the identity behind these virtual characters.
The one that is puzzling is Tight and Virtual Ellen superimposed over Caprica 6. This may be an attempt to manipulate or control Tigh (whose relationship with Ellen, mirrors that of Baltar and 6 and Lampkin/Faye) for some unkown purpose at this point.
Then there are vision which are different from virtual characters in some ways. Kara and Leoben/Father figure and Elosha/ Roslyn as well as Adama and his wife as seen in the episode with the wedding anniversary storyline. However, Adama seems to control this kind of projection. This appears to be a constructed memory palace that Adama accesses once a year.
Joseph Adama/Romo Lampkin Connection?
Creation of S7?
Projection Capability/Memory Palace correlation?
Final Cylon/Final 4 connection?
Knights Templar Connection?
Wed, 2008-08-06 12:07
Quorum of Twelve Apostles -
Quorum of Twelve Apostles - Last Supper Picture
In the Last Supper Picture, RDM asks who is missing? Can you break the (Da Vinci) code?
Who are the missing people in each Quorum of 12 Apostles? In both Da Vinci and RDM Last Supper they are grouped in Threes. This is my best guess at each Quorum. (The columns don’t translate well to the website)
Cylon Quorum Biblical Quorum Human Quorum Connection
D’Anna Simon, the Zelot Roslyn *dying* dying leaders
Gina/Caprica 6) Jude Thaddeus Dualla *escaped death* connected to President
Tigh Matthew Gaeta *near death* has the answer
???Anti-christ Phillip ??? Christ resurrection ???
Leoben James, the Greater Lee *escaped death* divine bloodline
Tory Thomas Baltar *fails suicide* doubting Thomas
Romo Lampkin Biblical God Adama Bloodline Gods (more than 1 god)
Simon John/Beloved Disciple Kara/Lazarus clone/resurrection
Anders Peter Billy/Elosha *dead* speakers for the Apostles
Tyrol Judas Iscariot Cally *dead* betrayal
Athena (Sharon) Andrew Cottle birth of Hera
Doral James, the Just Helo spokesperson
Cavil Bartholomew Adama *escapes death* military leaders
Is there an attempt to replace human members of Quorum of Twelve with cylon counterparts?
- Sharon attempts to assassinate Adama and Tigh has flashbacks of doing same.
- Tory assassinates Cally.
- Zarek suspected of assassination attempt on Roslyn and Adama/Roslyn contemplate same for Zarek
- Tigh/Anders/Tyrol/Kara almost assissinate Gaeta
- Sharon contemplates assissinating Hera on Cylon Basestar
- Cally attempts murder/suicide of herself and Nicholas
- Virtual Leoben convinces Kara to suicide
- Virtual 6 convinces Baltar to attempt suicide (Gaeta intervenes)
- Lee nearly dies in a cylon firefight
- Dualla narrowly escapes death in cylon boarding
- Billy sacrifices himstel to save Dualla (Ellen is present)
- Ellen & Zarek suspected of assassinating witness hired to assassinate Roslyn
- Elosha killed on Kobol
Other Influences - More Questions:
- terrorist/anti-government/Laura’s nemesis/activist/campaigns for Baltar as president
- later adviser to Lee and Laura/claims humanity are slaves to the elite (same as Baltar’s manifesto)
- Zarek does and about face and tells Laura Baltar’s trial will bring a tornado down on them and is terrified of what will ensue. Laura says she has never seen him like this.
- Zarek’s criminal past mirrors Baltar’s
- Was Lampkin, Zarek’s lawyer
- Was Zarek on the verge of insanity as is Baltar at the end of season 3
- Was Zarek, Lampkin’s first chosen one
Is this the cylon god’s first attempt at creating a “son in his image”? Is this why Leoben is obsessed with Kara. He says god is in each of us and he is god. He knows who Kara is the beloved disciple (Mary Magdalene). Is this why he attempts to force her to love him? Kara is also Lazarus and it is Jesus who resurrects Lazarus. Is this why he is the image that is given to Kara at the Maelstrom storm?
- In the description of Da Vinci’s painting; Matthew is described as “having the answer to the initial question”. What is the question? Who is the final cylon?
- Gaeta’s Lament: “Will she find love” could refer to Roslyn burning a candle for Adama (as in last supper picture) and accepting love as convinced by Virtual Elosha. Roslyn changes her mind about letting Baltar die and attempts to save his life. Or could the line “dark and laughing rain” refer to Caprica 6 finding love. Also a refernce to the cylon god who demands to be loved.
- Why is the manipulation of Laura necessary? What is Baltar’s fate? Is it to be sacrificed and die for all cylon sins?
- What is Tyrol’s connection to the Judas position in last supper and the spear of destiny that he is holding?
- What is the Tigh/Ellen Connection about? Is Caprica pregnant with the anti-christ?
- Did the cylon god create too well?
- Do the 8’s have a capacity to develop a real soul? Capacity to love? Free will?
- Caprica 6 says that Athena is one of them now (human) and beats her brutally (jealously) on Caprica.
- Is this why Hera is so important?
- Did Lampkin use Joseph Adama in the creation of the S7. Is this why he knows him well?
- Is there a connection to Bill Adama’s ability to construct and use a memory palace, (Joseph Adama and Lee Adama having this ability as well) and cylon projection.
- is this why Baltar has a similar ability to project?
- Is Lampkin, Joseph Adama’s keeper/jailer/torturer
- Is this why the First hybrid is terrified of Kara leading the way to earth, does he know the cylon god’s plan and is this why he identifies Kara as the harginger of the apology’s and attempts to stop her but is obstructed
- Does the first hybrid know the cylon god as the nemesis of god and the Adama’s
- Does Bill Adama suspect Lampkin? Is this why he wants Lee to drop out of the Baltar’s trial.
Hera Hybrid - Helo & Athena:
- Is Hera giving the images of the opera house to Roslyn and Athena
- Hera draws the picture of Caprica with the numbers 666, this terrifies Athena who shoots one of the Capricas
- Is this the first of 3 experiments by cylon god (human and S7 hybrid)
- Hera’s blood heals Laura and gives protection to Athena against cylon diseases
- Is Hera part of the divine bloodline?
- Who is Helo? In the last supper, he takes the position of James, the Just who is described as both Jesus brother and step-brother. Adama treats him like a son. Adama accepts and trusts Athena.
Nicholas Hybrid - Cally & Tyrol:
- What of Nicholas? Cally cannot cope with him and is driven to dispair.
- She attempts murder/suicide when she discovers Tyrol is a cylon and is murdered by Tory.
- Is this the second experiment (Human and Final Five)
- We are told by RDM that Nicholas does not have a role to play.
???? Hybrid - Caprica 6 and Saul Tigh:
Is this the last permutation of the experiment (S7 & Final 5); originally attempted with Sharon and Tyrol but thwarted.
More than One God?
- Joseph, William, Lee Adama (father, son and holy ghost)
- Laura Roslyn (Mary)
- Kara/Lazarus - beloved and hidden disciple of Jesus/Mary Magdalene (Da Vinci Code)
- Romo Lampkin - cylon god (satan) - destroyer of worlds
Fri, 2009-01-16 21:29
Well, as of tonight you get
Well, as of tonight you get the grand prize. I wonder if Moore or someone listened to you, or if you were just a really awesome detective? If the latter, you're the winner for sure!
Let's see if it holds true, because as of now, I'm convinced that the writers are frakking with all of us! :O Maybe they are the real cylons.
Sat, 2009-01-17 03:17
Ellen was not hard to suss out -- but she was my #2 pick as I though her not as interesting and dramatic a choice as the virtual being. The virtual being now is more clearly what she says she is -- emmisary of the Cylon God.
As to why I was right about the love affair thousands of years long, this was just my saying, "Ok, if it's Ellen, what makes her interesting?" This seemed to be the most reasonable plot to make Ellen a satisfactory fifth.
Thu, 2008-07-31 22:23
i still like cottle more, but you've got a point about ellen
I would still much prefer it be another character other than Ellen, based on earlier comments about how she's not a very well developed character and comes off as annoying and not that smart, ala a poor man's Lady Macbeth.
But your points are all quite valid. And it helps explain why the coupling of Ellen and Saul never really made much sense: when you imagine that they've been together for 4K years, the fact that they're not too lovey dovey is understandable.
This raises another line of inquiry: will she come back? And if so, in what form? I don't think these original cylons regenerate like the Significant Seven. For instance, if Saul were to die, would you expect him to pop out of a tub looking like he does now? That wouldn't make sense, given that the original five appear to live full human lives, can age, and don't necessarily have the other attributes of the significant seven (e.g., greater resistance to radiation, greater strength, the ability to plug wires into their veins... etc.).
And so I wonder, if it is Ellen, whether we'll learn about it from sources other than Ellen and before she makes some kind of reappearance.
Or, if she doesn't appear at all? One of the things I took away from the destruction of the hub is that it meant no more immortality for the significant seven cylons, which Natalie remarked made them more "human". Maybe this means that the five aren't pulling the strings, but instead were spun out into the human population by the AI/Cylon God, and in fact don't have any real control.
As a final point, how this plays out hopefully will clear up the differences between the original five cylons, the significant sevens, and the rest of the humans. I'm inclined to believe that the original five are far more advanced than the significant seven, but not necessarily in ways that would make them superior.
Fri, 2008-08-01 01:10
How Ellen comes back
This is indeed an issue. In trying to understand why ancient beings would incarnate themselves as pure humans, unaware of their nature, the main thing I thought of was an attempt to stay human. But what would come back would not be as human, because I have to assume that they would come back not as just a continuation of that human life, but as a merged being, with the restored memories of their true life and nature.
And that restored being might have a human body but would not have the aged one that was left behind. To make that work they would need to put Kate Vernon into fancy makeup, or have a different actress, and they have said this is not what happens.
Having it be a dead character is a tough one. I guess other dead characters, like Cally are at a more natural age for a new body. Cally could also result in the same star-cross lovers story but I don't see it as much, especially with Galen's rant about how he settled for her. The Cally plot has other interesting aspects, particularly her relationship with Tory.
I do think that one way or another we should see something about these characters old relationships. They have been friends/enemies/colleagues for a very long time. When they get more memories of that, we might see flashbacks or other such things, though the ages make it hard.
If it's not a dead character, and it's not the virtual being (and the virtual being needs some major resolution, if not being the final cylon) then we have to conclude our clues are wrong, since they eliminate everybody else. While many are ready to dump "four in your fleet" this one seems right to me. If I have to dump the last supper I'm back to Baltar.
Fri, 2008-08-01 03:04
Yeah, i think it could be Ellen... this was my reasoning for such an idea from the TVWOP forums from a couple months back:
1) She was found to be on the Rising Star by Bill Adama and, according to her, had been there since some unknown hero picked her up (in her unconscious state) and took her aboard once the Cylons began the attack on the airport on Picon where she was. Adding to this the fact that no one on the Rising Star remembers treating (or even seeing) Ellen prior to Bill making contact with her. This struck me as a little odd, seeing as those ships are all overcrowded - people would notice someone requiring medical attention.
2) As Bill was transporting her to Galactica, all that business with the Cylon Raider began. One solitary Raider, jumping in and out for no obvious reason. Perhaps it was making sure Ellen made it onto the Galactica. Sure, that's a stretch, i guess it could have just as easily have been looking for a bite to eat.
3) The Hybrid stated that the 5th Cylon is "still in the shadow yet clawing for the light" - Ellen is dead and hence no longer with the fleet and one could argue that she is 'clawing for the light' by returning to Saul Tigh in his recent visions perhaps. D'Anna also stated that here are only 4 of the final 5 in the fleet.
4) The Hybrid also said that the 5th was "Hungry for redemption" - it could be said that Ellen would be after her betrayal of the resistance on New Caprica.
5) In 'Tigh me up, Tigh me down', there's a scene involving Saul and Ellen getting 'physical' on some scaffolding after their dinner with the Adama's and Roslin. Baltar soon arrives and shakes Ellen's hand - at this point Head-Six arrives, stares at Ellen (as that awesome Bear McCreary music plays in the background) and says to Baltar something like "you know there's something about this one". Baltar agrees. Perhaps Head-Six does know the identities of the Final Five and is therefore not subject to the Significant 7's programming to not think about them.
6) The space for the final Cylon in the BSG 'Last Supper' image is located next to Saul - it would be fitting then if it turned out to be his wife. He is even looking in that direction.
Wed, 2009-01-21 18:46
No he didn't.
What he said was that they had considered making her a Cylon as far back as season 1, but never comitted to the idea.
Ellen's "mysterious" appearance on the ship can, in fact, be attributed to the fact that after the series began the writers realized that adding Ellen (who's character had been established in her absence) would be a good idea, but couldn't come up with a plausible way to introduce her. Fortunately the Cylon storyline gave them a convenient excuse, but it was in no way, shape or form decided upon, let alone finalized, until S3 (at the earliest).
Fri, 2008-08-01 17:31
Oh it so sucks ...
... which doesn't keep it from being the truth. Ellen, I agree, is probably one of the more disagreeable characters. Cavil might have been a malicious, hateful ****, but he was consistent and predictable. But Ellen was all over the place. A slut, a drunk, a thinker (yes, even that). But, above all, someone I wouldn't trust with my worst enemy's life. Who knows, she might kill him, she might save him.
Sat, 2008-08-02 15:57
It's quite interesting
It's quite interesting seeing how people have warmed to this brassy whore. We can all make mistakes and have difficulties and, maybe, not end up where we planned. She was battered, screwed up, and a pain in the ass but one could argue that underneath that her inner potential shined through, if I can get dewy eyed for a moment. I doubt she is the Final Cylon but Brad has nailed a lot of the reasons why I thought she could be, and if Ron had picked her his TV career wouldn't be left in tatters.
I quite like this run of looking at candidate characters. Brad identifies a lot of interesting things and makes an effort I'm too brain dead to stretch to. While we wait for the series to resume it's some high quality filler to give everyone something to do and keep the fire burning. I like it. If you start running out of ideas, Brad, maybe, looking at some of the BSG technologies, culture, and other things might be worth mining. Dunno. Whatever. It's all great.
Sun, 2008-08-03 01:12
The final cylon is Kat. he is also Bill Adama's dead sister. If you look at the Caprica plot line it all makes sense.
Mon, 2008-08-04 09:11
All clues and promises made off screen are misdirection or plain lies. I believe the Final Cylon is in the Last Supper picture and anything RDM said to the contrary should be ignored. I think what we see on screen are hints and misdirection. I think the Final Cylon is Baltar or Starbuck. My guess is Starbuck.
Wed, 2009-01-21 18:42
If Moore is lying he'd
If Moore is lying he'd completely alienate the very fanbase he needs to bring with him to Caprica. Fans would never forgive him, and he knows that.
Fri, 2008-08-08 01:01
question for brad
Brad, are the final 5 Cylons so old that we're going to find out they are actually the Gods from the previous cycle?
Mon, 2008-08-11 12:43
Who are the gods
We have heard very little about those gods. I am pretty confident there will be some relation between the final five and their god (who may be the 5th) and the Lords of Kobol, but we have not been given a lot of info.
The Lord of Kobol who supported the tribes and opposed them being kicked off Kobol was named Athena, which is Sharon's call sign. The Lord who kicked them off was Zeus, whom Adama is often compared to.
Sun, 2008-11-02 06:18
Ellen Tigh must be the final Cylon.I suggest that after Tigh poisoned her on New Caprica her body was found by Cylon Caprica Six after the exodus(shortly after Six, D,anna and Baltar find Hera alive in season three).
It's a possibility Ellens consciousness was transfered to Caprica Six explaining the visions Tigh has of Ellen imprinted over Caprica Six in season four. For what other reason could Tigh be made to bond with Caprica Six (and impregnate her) other than to reveal that Ellen is trying to reach out to Tigh through Caprica Six?
Fri, 2009-01-16 21:04
So Ellen Tigh it is...
So it is Ellen Tigh...wow.
Fri, 2009-01-16 21:22
!!! I really thought she was a red herring.
Now the final mystery is whether Starbuck is Leoben's daughter or not.
Fri, 2009-01-16 21:08
YOU WERE RIGHT
YOU WERE RIGHT
Fri, 2009-01-16 21:09
You were right, Ellen Tigh
You were right, Ellen Tigh is the last final five!
Fri, 2009-01-16 21:18
You had to have the script beforehand
Otherwise you are psychic or a genius. Way too spot on ...
Fri, 2009-01-16 21:31
No Ellen isn't, that is just
No Ellen isn't, that is just to throw you off. They are all some sort of false beings. Hello, two Starbucks??!!!!.... I think Dualla figured it out when she touched the jacks and had a flash back like Tyrol. They just didn't show hers. In her locker there was a picture of her at the beach as a kid. Those were her jacks. That's why she was so interested in Apollo's speech. A chance to try life a different way and not live on in her current state. Tigh just thought it was Ellen because that is who he remembers from the past. The dialogue and attention to Dualla for so much of the show wasn't something not thought out. If Tyrol would have recognized someone in his past and saw them on the ship at present day he would have thought they were the fifth. Maybe that's why they didn't show any of the other final fours flash backs.
With Starbuck I really hope they don't get into different time lines and alternate futures. No one ever pulls that off right and it always sucks.
Sat, 2009-01-17 12:30
I think there is more to this that a clear cut "Ellen is the final cylon." I've thought for some time that Kara was a reborn individual, not a cylon. She's like (pardon the references) the Jesus feature in the plot, arising from the ashes to save the humans/cylons. Her centerpiece has been "destiny." I don't think they are ALL cylons.
But - I think several other people are cylons. Ellen may be one, but I think there are others. My money was on Lee as he was in the shadow of his dad, reluctant to take on leadership, etc. A lot of the clues pointed to Lee. If you watch when the four cylons hear the music and go into one room, Lee is right behind them, only he doesn't make it to the room in time - a warning sound and soldiers interrupt him. There are a lot of things like that which only happen to Lee. Personally, I think Lee was switched at birth or something like that. Thinking of how to tie it all in with "Caprica," it would be good to have one of the Adama children as hybrids, cloned or cylon. Given the nature of the new show, I would think this would be an important part of the continuity.
Sat, 2009-01-17 13:44
Ellen is the fifth
Oh, I think Ellen is the fifth, just as Saul remembers.
The point is that there are more than five special beings here. However, there is a particular crew of five, who have been friends for thousands of years, and have a particular special history.
But they aren't the only ones (though they may have the longest special history.)
John Lee Johnson
Wed, 2009-01-21 16:38
The Ellen Tigh Plot
I think it should be obvious at this point that it is not Earth of the future, but Earth of the distant past in a prehistory that has been lost to us now. The people of Earth were the 13th tribe, Cylons with a direct culture link to Kobol. The Humans and Cylons can not live on Earth and never will be, but their offspring (the next Human race, Human and Cylon mixed children) will be who repopulate the Earth. To make the next human race never again repeat the cycle of history the Colonials and Cylons are stuck in, their children will be not be given any of the Colonial/Cylon scientific knowledge and technology, but will have to start over with nothing. Their civilization becomes ours, we are the mix of Colonial and Cylon DNA.
Wed, 2009-01-21 17:53
Not in the past
People like to imagine it is in the past, but that's not this Earth, not any kind of Earth at all. The real Earth is full of fossils in the ground, remember? And our history, or races, our cultures, are all derived from our multi-million year story of evolution and migration in concert with our animals. I have an article on this blog that details just how impossible it is for anything remotely like our Earth to be the result of an "Ark" even a million years ago.
Fri, 2009-01-16 23:13
I think Starbuck is a copy
I think Starbuck is a copy of ellen tigh, and vice versa.
So they are both the final Fiith
Sat, 2009-01-17 03:09
Frak Earth - Ekeen is the
Frak Earth - Ekeen is the Fifth!
Sat, 2009-01-17 17:34
Sat, 2009-01-17 23:58
My feeling is the fifth
My feeling is the fifth cylon isn't Ellen. This is a red herring/Tigh's mistaken interpretation of what's happening to him.
It's happened too close to the end of the episode to be of dramatic value. This isn't how you'd reveal such an important/anticipated idea.
Also, Kate Vernon (Ellen) isn't credited in any more episodes. Strangely, she's not credited in this one either (E11).. but maybe the flashback shot was already done with another set/episode.
My money is on Zak Adama. Tobias Mehler (Zak) is credited in the final two episodes, and it fits with "not in the supper picture" and Leoben's "Adama is a Cylon" prophecy/remark to Roslin.
Sun, 2009-01-18 00:01
I forgot to mention.. we
I forgot to mention.. we also know Zak was also Kara's first husband. I bet resurrected her and sent her back.
Sun, 2009-01-18 00:29
Well, scrap all that. Just
Well, scrap all that. Just read interviews with Vernon and Moore who confirm Ellen is the fifth.
The writing just went sadly downhill. What a hackjob.
Wed, 2009-01-21 18:47
Zak was Kara's fiancee, not her husband
Sun, 2009-01-18 10:13
Lots of characters come back
Lots of characters come back for Daybreak- photos taken during filming show CAlly in her deckhand suit, along with Prosna and/or Socinus, and I believe Kat was there as well. They're flashbacks.
Wed, 2009-01-21 18:40
It's not frakking Zak Adama
1) Kate does get a credit at the end of last weeks episode, and the actress claims she will be in *ahem* seven of nine episodes. Most likely the reason she is not credited is precisely because people were scouring the internet looking for such clues to the identity of the fifth.
2) Yes, actually, at the end of an episode is PRECISELY when you usually want to have such a reveal. Indeed, this was the case in revealing Boomer, D'Anna, Tory, Tigh, Anders and Tyrol. It leaves the audience wanting more, and allows a full episode to explore the ramifications.
3) There are nine episodes left, and still a ton of questions left to answer. They are not going to waste the little time they have left sending our heroes chasing after a red herring.
4) Zak misses on several criteria: we've never seen him before, he'd be played by a guest star, and he'd open up far, far more questions than he'd answer.
Wed, 2009-01-21 19:24
I don't think IMDB is up to date. Kandyse McClure is listed in quite a few of the remaining episodes as well.
Sun, 2009-01-18 09:49
For all of you saying Ellen
For all of you saying Ellen isn't the fifth, just swallow the pill - it's been confirmed. Not Starbuck, not Dee, not Doc Cottle. Ellen is the fifth.
Sun, 2009-01-18 10:26
Making Ellen the 12th Cylon Model, IS A REAL LET DOWN.
Sun, 2009-01-18 14:12
What "confirmed"? Because
What "confirmed"? Because Moore said it in an interview? He'd say it in an interview if it were a fake-out, too.
Wed, 2009-01-21 19:27
You mean like when he said Starbuck was dead?
Wed, 2009-01-21 22:34
Starbuck did die, and was duplicated/downloaded. The Cylons refer to their temporary deaths and death sometimes (other times they say they can't die.) They talk about the space between life and death, too. As did not-Leoben to Starbuck. He told her she was about to enter it. And I don't think he ever said she was dead, did he? Haffner said "Starbuck as we know it is dead" which was true.
Thu, 2009-01-22 08:32
It would take me a while to
It would take me a while to track down a quote, but I do remember Moore saying that she's dead. On top of that, a big deal was made of Sackhoff signing on for other shows and her name being removed from the credits. It was a huge fakeout. I'm not saying that he's definitely doing that with Dualla, but there's a precedent that Moore has brought back two female characters from the "dead." I'm not counting any of the "deaths" of the S7 because we know they can resurrect, I'm only counting on two character we thought were human.
Thu, 2009-01-22 13:28
For those who know the TV business
Her removal from the credits was proof that she was coming back. You see, for a contracted regular, their contract requires they be in the credits whether they are used or not in a given episode. They get paid whether or not they are used, unlike the guest stars. You can't remove a regular from the credits without their permission. The fact that Sackhoff gave her permission indicated that she was game, and thus coming back.
Sun, 2009-01-18 15:03
Glad she's the final Cylon
I won $35 in the final Cylon pool at work because of her!
John Lee Johnson
Wed, 2009-01-21 16:44
I think it should be obvious at this point that it is not Earth of the future, but Earth of the distant past in a prehistory that has been lost to us now.
The original and Re-imagined BSG both draw upon myths and theories about ancient astronaughts and origins of mankind.
The people of Earth were the 13th tribe, Cylons with a direct memory, and culture link to Kobol. The Colonial Humans and Cylons can not live on Earth and never will be, but their offspring (the next Human race, Human and Cylon mixed children) will be able to and will repopulate the Earth.
To make the next human race never again repeat the cycle of history the Colonials and Cylons are stuck in, their children will be not be given any of the Colonial/Cylon scientific knowledge, historical knowledge or technology, they will have to start over with nothing. Their civilization becomes ours, we are the mix of Colonial and Cylon DNA.
Wed, 2009-01-21 22:36
I need to have the comment form say "don't say it's in the past"
I swear I am going to have to have the comment form tell people not to post yet another suggestion it's all in the past.
It isn't. That's scientific nonsense, and plot nonsense. There are several articles here on the blog that explain why in great detail.
Thu, 2009-01-22 16:17
Glad you like my Photobucket
Glad you like my Photobucket :)
Sat, 2009-01-24 21:06
Why were the only bones that
Why were the only bones that were found on Earth belonging to Cylons?
Sat, 2009-01-24 21:41
Because the 13th tribe was a
Because the 13th tribe was a tribe of Cylons.
Wed, 2009-02-11 12:27
Can someone please explain
Can someone please explain why everyone is so sure the final cylon is Ellen Tigh!
Earlier in the episode, starbuck finds a charred corpse with her dogtags attached. That there is some real physical evidence that she is a cylon. Saul simply had a memory of ellen living on earth, which could just plain be wrong and intended to mislead.
Wed, 2009-02-11 14:24
Moore has said that Starbuck is "something else entirely." I think it was Olmos who said her story is dark and sickening. I'm going with the obvious right now and believing it when Tight said "You're the Fifth." In the previews we see Ellen in a resurrection tub. Sure, it could all be twisted around my the creative editing, but I'm going with the simplest answer right now.
Wed, 2009-02-11 15:51
She is the fifth
Vernon and others have been unequivocal about it. This is not some sneaky mystery. Starbuck is a sneaky mystery.
With Starbuck, we have a few options. She could have been downloaded and duplicated, or she could have been collected and her dog tags put on a burned body. After all, the tech to transport her burned body and exploded viper out of the maelstrom is no fancier than the tech to collect her intact body, perhaps less fancy. I mean they have teleporters (FTL drive) in this show, and they also have mind downloading (for Cylons) so it's a toss up.
Wed, 2009-02-11 17:37
I don't think RDM was being sneaky when he said that Starbuck is something else entirely. I have this feeling that she's the 13th Cylon. "13th, you're crazy, there's only ever stated to be 12!" But it makes sense that there would be, as there was a long lost 13th colony, and this would make everything symmetrical (BSG seems to love their symmetry). Perhaps Starbuck was the Final Five's first attempt at procreation, or maybe their latest, with her father being one of the 5 (they never did show him)-- this would explain her mother's resentment towards her, if she were part cylon. She could very well be the first hybrid, and therefore downloadable. She could be the counterpart to Count Iblis, or the very first Cylon. Many, many options.
Tue, 2009-07-28 07:05
Why the Ellen Tigh plot doesn't work
The most annoying of all the plotlines, abandoned, 'left open' (read: not worked out properly by the writers) and apparently resolved is Ellen Tigh being the final cylon.
Adama quite specifically says that Tigh has aged. His wife must also have aged to not appear to be a cylon.
That means the bodies they regenerate into would have to be of the age at which they were 'released' into the human population. They would have been younger bodies.
The bodies in stasis couldn't age or they wouldn't survive the 2000 year journey.
Ellen's new body should have been younger when she regenerated - by about 20 years. It appears to be a terminal flaw in the plot, which is riddled with so many that it fails to tell a consistent story.
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